# Leveraging Workplace Envy for Strategic Growth

**Podcast:** HBR IdeaCast
**Published:** 2026-10-20

## Transcript

Allison Beard.
I'm Adi Ignatius, and this is the HBR IdeaCast.
Adi, today we're going to be talking about envy.
All right, that sounds like something that is not good for an organization.
In some ways, you're right, but I'm going to ask you to be a little more open-minded because actually envy in the workplace isn't all bad.
Ooh, you sound like one of those hard-charging bosses who pits everyone against each other to increase performance.
Some people do do that, but no, this isn't what I'm talking about.
Our guest today is making a more subtle argument.
She is a researcher who says that envy can give us clues as to what we really want and value and where we might want to direct our energy, whether that's a more senior colleague that you admire or a competitor's company that you can learn from.
So instead of being petty or toxic, envy can be a good thing for our careers and our organizations if it's leveraged the right way.
That sounds like a really tricky emotional balance to get just right.
Yes.
She acknowledges that envy can play out in negative ways, and we'll talk through that.
But more importantly, she's going to explain how to turn these feelings into something productive for yourself and your team.
Stacey Kim wrote the book Envy, why wanting what they have is the key to getting what you want.
Here's our conversation.
I think that a lot of us are taught to see envy as a sort of a negative, toxic thing.
that we should avoid both because we want to be good people, but also for our own mental health.
You know, it's the green-eyed monster.
It's one of the seven deadly sins.
Why do you have a different perspective on envy?
I think I have a different perspective because I spent my adolescence in Korea in the 70s, late 70s, early 80s.
And in Korea, at least back then, you know, people were far more open about talking about their envy.
And they would say the phrase 부러워요 or 부럽다 to their envy target.
So they were basically saying, I envy you.
I admire you.
I wish I could be like you.
And they were pretty open about it.
And I've come to realize that that actually helps start a conversation about envy.
of an opportunity to learn about, well, how did this person get what you wanted?
It's more emulative, it's more motivating, and it also aligns to what research tells us about the...
different types of envy.
So there's two basic types.
One is benign and one is malicious.
And so that budo oil is aligned with that more benign side, which is a motivating side to envy, that I think that English speakers, because there is no word for that, benign envy we don't think about.
And so we kind of automatically default to the deadly sin, that shameful emotion that we are more familiar with here in the U.S.
or in the Western world.
I'm hearing you say that one, it's useful to acknowledge or admit that you have envy, and two, that you should distinguish between malicious envy and benign envy.
and maybe move more toward benign envy?
How do you tell what kind of envy you're feeling and then encourage yourself to make it more benign or motivational?
Partly we can't really control it.
You know, envy is just a negative emotion that just happens.
But it does tell us something.
And I like to define it very simply as, you know, wanting something that someone else has, right?
And you kind of feel low about it, you know, because you're lacking in some way or you feel behind in some way.
And so it's a negative emotion.
But there's two different types.
And if that feeling kind of...
is more focused on the person that you envy, it's more likely to be malicious.
For example, if you wish that person didn't have it, or if you wish that you wanted to take that away or bring that person a notch down, that tends to be more malicious.
Whereas...
the more positive envy, the benign envy, you're more focused on the good or the desire, what it is that you wanted.
And so if you're able to kind of refocus your attention away from the person who has it, and more towards what it is that you want and really look at what it is that you want, then I think it becomes more motivating.
And then you can more easily turn that negative feeling into emulation rather than envy.
Yeah.
Where do you see envy playing out or coming up most often in people's professional lives today?
I think that any time you're in a competitive situation, you know, you're naturally going to compare yourself with other people.
People will say comparison is a thief of joy.
I don't think that that's all that helpful because, you know, we can't help but compare.
Even as children, comparison helps us figure out how to join a group, you know, how to stay in a group.
and how to behave in that group, and how to not get kicked out of that group, right?
So those comparisons are important for those reasons.
And, you know, we learn more about ourselves through those comparisons.
So we're naturally wired to compare.
And then when we make those comparisons in more competitive situations, we're more likely going to feel some kind of envy because we're focused on people who are ahead of us, who are doing things that we want to do or maybe, you know, getting things that we want.
Yeah, I imagine that.
The rise of social media has made envy a more common phenomenon because you're not just comparing yourself to the people in your organization or your town, but in the entire world.
You know, I can see every journalist and editor, you know, who exists and the amazing things that they're doing right now.
Right.
And it's like keeping up with the Joneses meant people like in your neighborhood, like people you interact with in real life.
But now social media allows us to see everything about anyone's career.
Like we can look up on LinkedIn, you know, all the places that they've worked, all the volunteer work that they do.
And, you know, those pieces of information we didn't used to get and now we can.
And so there are many more opportunities to envy.
What are some wrong ways that you see people responding when they feel envy at work?
The first thing is to ignore that envy, to kind of push it down or to suppress it.
Because envy, like any other negative emotion, gives us information that's important.
So for example, fear tells us that there's danger, right?
And so we better watch out.
Or anger tells us like, okay, there's some kind of injustice here.
We need to correct this.
And envy tells us what we really want.
And so to kind of ignore that information, I think, is a mistake, right?
I ask people to, like, take a moment after the sting of the negativity to try and look at it more closely and learn from it.
Because you can naturally kind of get into the more malicious envy and where you, especially at work, where you start to think, okay, well.
that person got that promotion or that person got that cool assignment.
And then you start to think about, okay, how can I bring this person a notch down?
I think that's a natural thing that we do.
Or maybe it's gossiping with other people.
Like, can you believe that person got that, you know, promotion?
It's so easy to do.
And so, you know, taking a moment to pause and recognize, wait a minute, oh, I'm feeling some envy here.
What can I do with this information that's more productive?
Because of what we've been taught about envy, it's often associated with shame or guilt.
So when you do feel envious of a colleague, you feel bad about it and then start beating yourself up because you're like, oh, not only am I not succeeding as much as he is, I'm a terrible person for, you know, begrudging him his success.
You know, I think most people are good people.
And so they.
feel guilty that they're having these feelings of ill will towards another person.
And I think that also is natural.
Feeling guilty is slightly different from feeling shame.
You know, so feeling guilty is like, oh, I did a bad thing, whereas feeling shame is I'm a bad person.
And when we feel that...
guilt so much that it kind of morphs into shame.
The real problem with that is that it keeps us stuck, right?
It keeps us from doing something about it, or, you know, it just kind of freezes you.
Brett Lyon and Sheila Rubin, you know, write about shame.
And they talk about that.
That's a big problem with shame is that, you know, you freeze when you feel shame.
And I saw that in my coaching clients.
You know, these are high achieving, you know, very conscientious people who have done a lot and they still envy.
And then they envy like, you know, somebody gets the promotion again.
We'll use that as an example.
And then think, OK, well, I feel bad because I'm feeling bad about this person.
Plus, that person got that promotion.
That means I can't get it.
Right.
And so there's kind of.
this freeze that happens.
Like there's this hopelessness.
Sarah Protazzi, she's a wonderful philosopher who studies envy.
And she calls that inert envy when you think, okay, now that somebody else got that promotion, it's unobtainable.
That's something that you wanted.
And so you kind of...
feel this inert envy, you kind of sulk is what she says.
And you sit with it, you kind of go inward and kind of blame yourself and or, you know, feel bad about yourself and then get stuck, right?
And so that's something that I really hope people will avoid by taking another look at their envy.
So if the first step is admitting that you have it, maybe trying to move yourself to a more benign feeling about it.
You also argue that it's important to pick it apart, analyze the four elements that make it up.
So walk us through that framework.
Yeah.
So I call it siren because it's S-I-R-N.
Envy is a negative emotion and it's trying to tell you something.
It's like an alarm bell ringing.
S is similar target.
Envy usually occurs when it's someone close to you that has something that you want.
And I find that to be somewhat hopeful because it means what you're envying, what you want is actually within your reach, right?
So to remember, okay, I'm not so far as behind as I think I might be.
I is the intangible desire.
And I think that's the most important thing.
It's looking a little bit more deeply into what it is we think we desire.
It's not usually the tangible thing like the promotion or more money or more wealth or more beauty or the nice vacations.
That's more tangible.
The more intangible desire is looking closely at how would I feel if I got this thing?
What is the feeling that I really want to capture?
Going back to the promotion, getting a promotion might mean to you that you'll feel more secure, that you'll feel more financially secure.
And that's the intangible that you want.
Or maybe it means that you'll be able to mentor other people.
And that's a feeling that you want to capture.
So looking more closely at the intangible desire is the second step.
R stands for relevant comparison.
You know, we not only envy people are close to us, but we envy in domains that we really care about.
Basketball players are going to envy other basketball players.
Cellists are going to envy other cellists.
You know, I envy knitters, I envy writers, you know, and stuff like that.
So it shows you.
What domain is important to you?
You know, for a long time, I kind of tried to ignore the fact that I wanted to be a writer.
And when I started like looking at my envy, I realized, oh, wait a minute, this is something I need to pay attention to.
This is something that's important to me.
Envy can help us in that.
as well.
And then finally, N stands for negative emotion.
You know, I mentioned that it's an alarm bell, but it also kind of serves as a gauge.
Like the more envy you feel, the more negativity you feel, the more like, you know, you can't shake off the feeling of envy, the more important this is to you and the more you want to pay attention to it.
So you've done that analysis.
How do you then shift that envy to a positive for you?
in your career or your team or your organization?
I always ask people to start small.
Like I want you to find like the smallest step you can take, right?
And rather than focusing on outcomes or that envy goal that you aspire to, think about like, what is the activity?
What is the smallest micro action that I can take that can move me a little closer?
And then think about like, oh, where?
can I start that like this week, right?
So for example, envy often points us to work that we want to do.
So how can we then take one little step?
Envy points us to, you know, people we want to emulate.
And so what can I do?
I like to start, for example, by studying that person that I envy.
thankfully, a lot of information online, right?
If I admire an author, for example, I will go and search for every podcast that they've been on and hear more about their writing process and then figure out, okay, well, what's something I can try out?
What's something that I could practice?
I've had clients study the people that they envy at work, just watch them and see if there's anything that they can learn from them and just kind of keep notes on them for a little bit.
Once you've gotten to know that person a little better, even though it's through research, you might be able to approach them simply by saying, I envy you, I admire you.
How did you do that?
Or I appreciate that you've been able to do X, Y, and Z.
Can you tell me more about how you got that done?
Providing a compliment and then asking a very specific question.
I think people are surprised at how much.
Other people would appreciate something like that and are willing to help.
Public expressions of envy seem a little bit risky.
So how do you figure out when it's going to help you or hurt you?
You know, it's trial and error.
You know, not everyone's going to help you.
And you would probably be able to know when it's safe.
to do that and when it's not.
Another way you can do it is to look for people that are similar to the person that you're envying that might be even closer to you, right, or more friendly.
And so that's something.
Another thing is don't just jump right into the big envy question or that big envy admission.
You know, you can kind of start to like befriend that person or, you know, just make small steps.
closer to that person or find out a little bit more doing the research.
Most people know when it feels not so safe, and I'm not telling people to go ahead and jump in and do that.
At the same time, you'll be surprised.
People are so yearning.
for compliments or to be recognized, right?
And so if you're able to spot out something small, and that's really specific, and give them a compliment there, like I noticed that you did X, Y, and Z, that after that meeting in the conference room, you picked up the garbage, you know, and, you know, I think that's so cool that you did that, right?
So let your observations kind of guide you.
Yeah, I guess when in doubt, you can always use the word admire instead of envy.
Exactly, yeah.
So you also draw a distinction between primary responses to envy and secondary responses to envy.
So explain that to our listeners.
You know, I think the best way to probably describe it is like, if you were to say, oh, I envy, let's pretend I'm a basketball player and I envy another basketball player.
You know, I'm going to watch that person and figure out what it is that he's doing.
or she's doing to make their game better, right?
And so I'm going to actually build my skill to be able to be as good as the basketball player that I envy.
And that would be a primary response.
That's really going after what it is that you want and then building the skills in order to do that.
So maybe it's like I practice as much as the person that I envy, or I dribble more, I shoot more, and I try to build those skills.
A secondary response would be like trying to somehow bring that person down a little bit or bring myself up.
By saying things like, you know, oh, that person's like just has a freak ability to play basketball.
So I'm never going to catch up with that person.
Right.
So that's a genius effect.
Right.
That's one secondary response.
Another secondary response might be that I start gossiping and saying, oh, yeah, you know, that basketball player actually, you know, does X, Y and Z and that's not OK.
Right.
Or.
Saying, well, if I practice more, I probably could be better than that person and just kind of giving up.
But that's another way to kind of build yourself up or to say something like, I'm a better runner than he is or she is.
Right.
And so, you know, building yourself in that way.
And so we want to move towards primary responses because that's the most useful and helpful.
Exactly.
I think that's more useful.
On the business or organizational side, I imagine that.
looking at the things that a competitor is doing well could be a useful thing for a leader to point to, to say, we really envy the way this organization does customer service or their website design.
So have you seen that play out at that broader scale?
I think the best example for that is Korea in the late 70s and early 80s.
It was still struggling to overcome.
the wars that had taken place.
The Japanese had occupied Korea for 36 years, and that was kind of another really tough part in Korea's history.
Everyone back then was still struggling.
And I think what Koreans did was that they used their envy or their hatred, actually, of Japan to really mobilize themselves to improve themselves.
You know, it just became like this national desire, a collective envy of Japan to kind of beat Japan.
And so as a student in Korea, you would hear teachers nearly every day tell you, you have to study hard in order for us to no longer be a third world country and beat Japan.
And, you know, people kind of took that nationalism and channeled it into something that was very helpful.
So for example, they really, you know, competed against Japan to get, you know, the 88 Olympics, right?
And they also competed in areas like cars and electronics.
And I think that that kind of helped motivate and help channel that anger and that frustration and that envy into something more productive.
And what's also interesting is that it didn't just occur back in the 70s, but it also happens more recently.
Korea recognized that its population was aging and then looked again to Japan to see, okay, well, how are the Japanese handling that?
And they copied their long-term care insurance program after the Japanese and actually tried to improve on it so that they could serve their citizens, their aging population.
And as a result, it's a very popular social service that the Korean government provides its people.
And it does more good.
So I think, you know, we can, even as groups, harness envy for good.
And a more fun example is the success of BTS and K-pop Demon Hunters and all of that, which has surpassed any Japanese sort of cultural stardom, right?
That's right.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, Koreans were very deliberate about it.
You know, there was the Ministry of Culture.
a division of the government that invested in the movie industry, in the entertainment industry, because Korea doesn't have that many resources.
And so they said, okay, well, we have people, we have talent, and we're going to nurture that.
Yeah, they look to J-pop, and then K-pop surpassed that, and it's definitely a phenomenon now.
Yeah, and I think that's a great example of Envy not necessarily being copying exactly what...
another group or company or in this case country does, but figuring out, okay, what is it that we really want?
Maybe it's global cultural relevance.
And so how do we do that in our own way?
Exactly.
So if you're a manager and you notice feelings of envy on your team, or maybe a CEO who's noticing envy, you know, between functions or departments, how should you handle it?
How do you harness it for good?
First of all, it's really hard to tell if somebody else has envy.
You might think that they do.
There are some researchers who found that, you know, there's no facial expression for envy.
And so, you know, I think that it's wise not to assume that somebody's feeling envy, but to maybe talk about it and to say, I've noticed some things, you know, what are you feeling here?
and talk about it in a more general way or look at the four components of envy and really diffuse that you're not out there to get this person, but to just kind of start conversations about, okay, let's talk about envy more freely.
And then, you know, what you can do is you can use teamwork to kind of shift that envy and to describe how We really want to work as a team here and not against each other.
And so what is it that we can learn from one another?
And how can we support one another and look at things like that?
How can we get closer to people?
Susan Fisk, she is a professor emeritus of Princeton.
She looked at Envy very closely as well.
When I interviewed her, she noticed that she shouldn't put two people.
in similar circumstances together to work with each other.
So if there were research projects, she would never put two people at the same level on that research project.
What she would do is she would find very different people, different people at different stages or people with very different skills because she wanted to avoid envy in that way.
And so I think that's probably a better use of...
preventing that competition.
Because remember, we envy similar targets.
If you bring together two people with very different levels of experience or different skills, then you're more likely to have collaboration.
So I think that's probably the best advice I could give like an executive who wants to kind of avoid the negative impact of envy.
It's another reason why we want to have more diverse people working for us.
Yeah.
I imagine also that you can get a team working together by focusing their collective envy externally, right?
You know, sort of, you know, whether it's, we want to get resources that this other team has.
So what are they doing and how do we mimic it?
That's a great idea.
You know, this competitor is doing this.
And so let's focus on our envy there instead of internally.
Absolutely.
I think that's what sports teams do, right?
Rather than compete with each other, they will direct their envy or their negativity towards a different team.
So if someone listening realizes, I'm feeling envious of a colleague right now, what should they do right away, not sometime in the future, but right now, to turn that feeling into something useful for them?
Yeah.
Well, I hope after listening to this, people will realize like, okay, envy is not necessarily a bad thing.
And so feeling envy doesn't mean that I'm a bad person, right?
And just kind of recognizing, hey, this is universal, this is natural, that I'm feeling this way.
It doesn't feel great, but it's okay.
And then, you know, going through the steps of looking at the four components of envy and saying, okay.
Let's remind ourselves, like, I'm not so far behind.
I'm envying a similar target.
Thinking about what is it that I really want?
What is the feeling that I want to capture?
You know, you go through all of those things and just list out, you know, very briefly.
I, you know, suggest people like take a three by five index card and just kind of write out, you know, scribble, you know, what are those four components of the envy that I'm feeling?
And then I would just.
Think of like, what is one small thing?
What is one thing that I could practice?
What is one thing that I could do to get myself a little closer to what it is that I want?
What is that intangible desire?
And is there something that I could do this week?
You know, is there something that I could do within 20 minutes?
And then just really trying to make it into a small practice.
I think those are the things that really do help.
Would you adapt that advice in any way for a leader who's feeling envious of another team or a competing organization?
I wouldn't because I think that, you know, no matter how high up you are, you know, if you've gotten that high up, that means that you've been in a competitive environment or you are in a competitive environment.
And so a leader, you know, is just as likely to feel envy as somebody who isn't a leader going through those different.
components, really looking at more closely at that intangible desire, being honest with yourself and saying, okay, what is it that I really, really want?
Because it's so easy to chase the next thing.
It's so easy to keep trying to go for more or trying to go for better.
But, you know, sometimes that's not really what we want.
Sometimes there's something deeper that we want to do.
I would...
you know, use the same advice for leaders or for people who are just starting out.
Well, thank you so much.
It's a terrific book and I've loved talking to you.
Oh, thank you so much, Allison.
I really enjoyed speaking with you.
That's Stacey Kim, a researcher and author of the book Envy.
Why wanting what they have is the key to getting what you want.
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I'm Alison Beard.