# AI Regulation Void and Market Fragility

**Podcast:** Pivot
**Published:** 2026-09-15

## Transcript

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You have this weird shadow on your face.
Oh, I know, because I'm leaning forward.
I'm just getting something.
I'm scared.
We don't need shadows for that.
Hi, everyone.
This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.
And I'm Scott Galloway.
Scott, I just did an interview with Jess Tarloff, your side piece.
Or you're her side piece, really, I think.
I think that's how I'm going to characterize it now.
Tell us about it.
Are you interviewing her a better name?
For her book.
For her book.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
It's called I Disagree, and it's about getting along better even in disagreement, which we do often, actually.
Our book would so be called And I Was Right by Kara Swisher.
No, no.
You mean, let's rake Scott over the coals for something stupid he said off mic that my friends are giving me a hard time on?
Well, why do you keep saying stupid things off mic, on mic?
Stupid is, stupid does, whatever Forrest Gump used to say.
But Scott, seriously, here's how my day went this week.
I think I was at a kid thing.
Phone rings.
Mayor of San Francisco.
Uh-oh.
Hey.
Sorry.
Let me just apologize up front.
Girl.
What the fuck?
Essentially, he doesn't talk like that because Daniel Lurie is the nicest person on the planet.
He is.
And he's like, hey, Scott said something.
I said, I fucking saw it.
He took one block.
He went on the worst block of San Francisco and then decided all of San Francisco was like that.
And I said, I heard that fucker.
And he goes, no, no.
I see he has a point of view, but we've been working.
He's infinitely reasonable.
And I was like, don't be reasonable for that asshole.
But then I gave him your phone number.
And did he call you?
He called you.
So just some context for the listeners.
I was in San Francisco for our Odoo, whatever it was we were doing.
And I love the Austin proper in Austin.
And so I stayed at the San Francisco proper, which I would describe as dark and dingy, but expensive.
And I love San Francisco.
I have huge affection for it.
I think physically it's the most beautiful city in the Union.
And my sister and I...
I said, let's walk to Cafe Zuni.
I haven't been there in 25 years.
I love that restaurant.
We walked, I guess it was about a mile.
I looked it up on maps.
I said, it'll be nice to walk.
And quite frankly, it just felt very, very ugly and very dystopian in terms of the number of homeless, number of people struggling.
And I went on the next day on the podcast and I said, look, I said, San Francisco still has real problems.
And I said, I saw hundreds of homeless.
And of course, it got clipped.
San Francisco still sucks.
And my sister, to her credit, who is more center right than I am center left, said it's gotten better.
And she said, we're in a really bad part of town right now.
Anyways, I said this.
The clip goes viral because people understandably got offended and pushed back on, you know, douchebag from New York and London shitposting San Francisco with a misrepresentative sample.
And I got a 415.
which I never answer if it's unidentified, but for some reason I pick it up and I hear, Scott, it's Mayor Lurie.
I'm like, oh, fuck.
I gave him your number.
I totally did.
I thought for a second, I thought, no, I'll give it to him.
Sure, Mayor Lurie.
Anyways, he was, the guy couldn't have been more thoughtful.
He's like, he wasn't defensive or contradicting me.
He said he wanted to know exactly where I walked, exactly what I saw.
And we had a very thoughtful conversation around the homeless issue, which, Every city official will tell you is the most intractable, difficult issue to face.
And I asked him to just send me some stats on San Francisco because he said it is getting better.
But just some stats.
Car break-ins, 22-year lows, down 83% between 2017 and 2025.
Unsheltered homelessness at lowest level in 15 years, with the fewest encampments on our streets since the city started counting in 2019.
The Reset Center, where law enforcement can bring individuals who are using drugs in public, is referring 39% of admitted individuals to some form of services, for example, treatment recovery shelter, and getting cops back on the street in under five minutes.
I think of this as, I mean, first off, this guy is impossible not to like.
But I think this is an example of good governance at a state and local level.
And what's plagued us is all of these guys and gals see themselves as the next president and start talking about Israel or start talking about Trump.
No, just do what Mayor Lurie does and says, the biggest problem right now is crime and homelessness.
And I'm going to attack that.
And I'm not going to offend the other half by being an ideologue.
I'm just going to focus on operations and being the executive I was elected to be.
Yeah.
For those who don't know, he had a background with a foundation that's very similar to the Robin Hood Foundation in San Francisco that he was working on these issues.
So he's very familiar with them.
The other thing, he's been helped in the way other mayors weren't by a Supreme Court ruling that allowed people to stop the encampments.
That was blocked for many, many years.
So you couldn't do anything.
You got sucked up into all these sort of homeless legal industrial complex that stopped you from doing that.
He's improved it a lot, and it's because of a wide range of things.
But he really is an ideal mayor for the moment in terms of solving things.
And he has a very even-handed, you know, there'll be controversy around him.
Is he pushing this?
Is he doing that?
And everything else, because it's a very difficult city to govern.
But I appreciate that you talked to him.
That was very funny.
Well, I want to be clear.
It's not fair of me to take 24 hours.
in an isolated area and make a generalization about San Francisco.
And you live there.
And so your senses, and I think you just answered my question, your sense is things are distinctly better.
Yes, distinctly.
So anyway, I appreciate it.
I'm glad that you do.
Next time you stay at my house, which is beautiful, and Louis will make you pancakes.
I want to be able to call someone and yell at them about room service, and I want to walk around.
I'm just not, I'm not a good house guest.
You can yell at Louis.
Louie will pretend that it's a hotel.
It's a beautiful house.
I have in a beautiful section where there are not homeless people.
I've been to your house.
You have a beautiful home.
Anyway, thank you for talking to him.
I keep thinking I'm going to like run into Tracy Chapman in the hallway.
She's there.
She's nearby.
I don't know why.
I imagine you being very good friends with her.
I know her.
I know her.
I don't know her well.
I think she's still in San Francisco.
Yeah, she lives around the corner.
Yeah, she lives really close to me.
Anyway, let's go on for what we're doing.
First, Donald Trump is dismissing AI concerns.
This is the story, Scott.
We really have to talk about this.
Saying any efforts to limit the technology are part of a sick conspiracy against AI and data centers.
We're part of a sick conspiracy, Scott.
According to Trump, the only control or guardrails that AI needs is a strong and smart, high IQ president.
And the USA has that in spades.
This comes after Anthropic CEO Darrell.
Dario Modi published an essay over the weekend calling on the AI industry to slow the pace of development.
He wants independent evaluators to review company safety practices and urging global effort, including China, to create standards and limits.
In a rare and convenient show of unity, both Sam Altman of OpenAI and Elon Musk of Grok are backing Dario's call for a slowdown.
Dario also spoke out on Face the Nation about wanting the government to be involved in all of this.
Let's listen.
Anthropic, and I would hope other companies have done everything we can.
to try to have legitimate oversight mechanisms.
I think the government and the public needs to have a stake.
And this is why we've supported regulation of the technology.
Regulation constrains the private companies.
Regulation allows the public and its elected representatives to have a say and limits what the private companies can do.
So, will the government get involved?
Let's listen to what Speaker Mike Johnson said on Meet the Press.
I think we've got to have meaningful regulation that does not smother American innovation.
Now, how to solve that equation, no one knows yet.
We're not going to rush in and pass a piece of legislation that would do harm to the country and put China as an edge.
And so we've got to do this carefully.
Of course, we'd vote on that tomorrow if we had the solution.
And I'll call everybody into session any day.
But we have to make sure we're doing it the right way.
I think the first step is to have a meeting of all the platform providers.
I've talked to the president about this and others.
I believe that's the next step.
I think we need to do it quickly.
Of course, they've been meeting with them for months.
They were all at the inaugural.
Mike, anyway, and they've been meeting tons.
A lot of people are wondering what's called for this slowdown now.
Did they see something or is it just money?
David Sachs, who is Trump's guru, who's been pushing just sort of Wild West kind of policies posted, stopped pretending the motivation is to slow down, is purely altruistic, noting they want to slow down open source.
In this case, I agree with David Sachs, although I think he's been a menace because he's not allowed any reasonable legislation to go through.
NVIDIA CEO Jensen Huang responded to AFU.
last week saying, what better way to create a demand than to create a problem.
We'll get to OpenA and not going public until next year, which we have said many times.
But talk a little bit about this, because there's a lot happening here, and suddenly all at once, you know, spurred by that anthropic researcher who said it's going to kill us, which I think got everybody's attention.
Well, Speaker Johnson's response to this, what feels like existential issue, was basically, to send out a save the date, to say that we should meet about it, and to say that if there was anything that reasonably cut, you know, the very fine or thread the very fine needle of not wanting to get in the way of innovation and create shareholder value and economic growth, which is key to an economy at the same time recognizing the externalities, which, by the way, is a tension we have dealt with for centuries with respect to economic progress versus not capturing too many.
Too many games for shareholders and outsourcing all the problems to the public.
That, at the end of the day, other than keeping the nation safe, is what governments do through thoughtful legislation and local officials.
Do they make that gavel for a man or a leader?
Governor Newsom has passed 12 laws attempting to regulate AI.
In China, they have laws that say no bot can pretend to be a person for longer than a certain amount of time because they realized in their nation and other nations.
adults and kids were falling in love with Cersei Lannister.
They have certain hours that kids cannot use AI.
They have all sorts of limits around how AI can be used for information.
Now, granted, they're using it for control.
Right.
But they have a lot of regulation.
And what do you know?
No, they understand the dangers.
They understand the threat.
And what do you know?
75% of the Chinese populace is optimistic about AI.
Mm-hmm.
And we haven't done anything.
Right now, America is engaging in an experiment.
It's a following.
We have never in the history of the modern economy had a trillion-dollar industry that is totally unregulated.
Totally unregulated.
And, like, he's like, we'll get to it.
But it's like, it's been 20 years, Mike.
in case you're interested and we've seen the damage done.
Let me just posit something.
One of the things I wrote to a pretty prominent technologist in this area, and they said, I was trying to compare it to nuclear proliferation, right?
This is a very similar kind of thing.
It should be global.
I've been pushing for global standards for years and years with both Democrats and Republicans.
And he said, if this was back then, Truman would have nationalized AI at this point.
Such an interesting point.
I know.
And this was someone who does not.
believe in a lot of government thing.
He goes, we're at the, it needs to be nationalized.
Now, Donald Trump saying any efforts are part of a sick conspiracy, data centers, like do nothing is politically, this is like not a good idea, I think.
And especially since he's.
utterly incompetent.
He is not the person who is high IQ that can handle this.
He is someone that gets bought and paid for by the technology industry.
Talk a little bit about the feeling also on the flip side that it's all these companies trying to zone out open source by solidifying because they can, if the government passes regulations, they can pay for them as opposed to small startups and things like that.
There's just so much here.
The first is, I'm going to bring up a name here.
Diane Whipple.
Do you remember that name?
I don't, but go for it.
33, a former All-American lacrosse player.
And in January 2001, about 25 years ago, she was mauled to death in the hallway of her Pacific Heights building by two Cresa Canario dogs.
Do you remember this?
Yes, I lived there then.
It was terrifying.
Yep.
Crazy neighbors with a crazy dog.
Yeah.
And the neighbors were prosecuted.
One is still in jail, one died in jail, because the law decided if you have these agents, i.e.
vicious dogs, and you know they're capable of this, and they're off leash, and they run into a hallway and they maul someone and kill that person, you are on the hook for this.
And now we're seeing across the nation that if parents don't secure their AR-15s and their mentally ill 15-year-old gets a hold of one of these things, We're going to prosecute the parents.
And this goes to incentives.
Right now, I would argue the majority of senior level executives claiming, oh, no, Frank's out of control, as in Frankenstein, is an attempt to absolve themselves of the responsibility that they own these fucking pit bulls.
By the way, pit bulls are lovely dogs.
I don't mean to malign pit bulls.
Yeah.
I don't think they're – okay, maybe some of it is concern, fine.
But this is about incentives.
You are responsible.
for these agents and these bots.
And while you want to capture the shareholder and the upside of the good things they do, that means you are responsible for the downside.
Correct.
The fact that we have nothing resembling the IAEA, we have cooperated multilaterally with...
We have not blown ourselves up.
...with enemies on nuclear weapons for eight years, for bioweapons.
The first thing that needs to be done by Trump is he needs to get into a room with Xi and say, we have a mutually vested interest in no one developing a super virus.
We have a mutually vested interest in our youth not killing themselves.
We have a mutually vested interest, especially China, in some level of control of misinformation that enrages people and gets them to start demonizing and going after.
and lynching people in a room.
There is so much overlap in terms of mutually vested interests that they could get in a room with talented technologists and diplomats and say, here's a two or three page quote unquote memo of understanding around what we are going to do, but the incentives need to change.
And there needs to be something regarding leadership and a regulatory body here.
And by the way, there are examples of how to do this.
And I was thinking about this.
Last night, the model, in my opinion, is the FAA or the SEC after the 1929.
Green market safety review for all models above a certain capability.
Never going to happen with Trump.
Just like never.
Well, OK, then then that void will be filled by Newsom or someone else.
And I do think this is about to become a campaign issue.
This is about to bubble up from data centers to the danger of the models in terms of an election issue.
Green market safety review for models above a certain capability line.
Before deployment, mandatory incident reporting, similar to the NTSB, the National Transportation Safety Board.
Anything goes wrong, you have to file it immediately and make us aware of it.
And then you fund it with a transaction fee on Frontier Compute, the way FINRA works.
That way, taxpayers aren't subsidizing oversight of the richest companies in history.
And taking the one thing every fast-moving industry hates and needs.
independent evaluator with, wait for it, subpoena power.
Not what Dario's recommending, these embedded evaluators.
Hey, Susie works for the government and makes 1 50th of you and she has no real fucking teeth.
But take her out with you tonight to the all hands.
Dario is literally asking for this zero teeth, zero juice.
They all are.
Like Mike Johnson, let me just interject.
Mike Johnson's like, let's get together with the leaders.
Why are they making the decision?
Why the fuck?
They love meeting at those fucking dinners.
Have you been invited to one of those Trump dinners?
Because we know a lot and we've been actually accurate.
We have been talking about this issue for years.
One thing we have to do, and I think we've done a very good job here on Pivot of articulating is people fucking hate you guys.
Like, let's bring citizens in.
Let's bring regulators in.
Let's bring academics and scientists in that do not agree with you on your lookout.
Bring people that don't have a financial interest in what's going to happen here and change the narrative.
This is one that's driving me crazy.
AI will kill 10% of immunity.
No, they won't.
The people who make AI will kill.
Let's stop talking about AI being, it's like saying electricity will kill.
whatever percentage.
And they did, by the way.
The bomb didn't kill 50,000 Japanese.
We did.
We did.
That's correct.
Like the bomb is just the tool.
And for them to characterize it like, oh, I don't know, like who, I don't know how the mistakes were made by whom.
And they need to be absolutely liable up to and including jail.
If one of their bots creates a virus and kills people, they need to go to jail.
Period.
That's right.
Period.
And the fact that they're characterizing is AI will do this.
AI will do nothing.
They will do something by creating it.
And the fact that Trump is in there, he is a bought and paid for, corrupt, demented person.
And we should not put this in his hands in any way whatsoever.
He's not just ignorant, he's corrupt.
And so it creates this terrible...
We are now in a position as if someone crazy was in charge when nuclear proliferation, the nuclear bomb happened.
Can you imagine letting companies figure out whether we should drop the bombs?
Just we can't do that.
That makes me crazy.
Well, OK.
So, again, the analogy I've always used is would we let Oppenheimer raise money from Andreessen Horowitz and start selling nuclear bombs into P&G and UAE?
We wouldn't.
However, practically, we're not nationalizing companies that offer this much shareholder value in their innovation.
We're just not.
Now, and by the way, I just want to correct the record.
I said 50,000 Japanese.
50,000 people died on the initial burst.
Somewhere between 150,000 and 250,000 Japanese died between the explosions and the fallout in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Okay.
What are known knowns here?
Trump's not going to do fucking anything.
Nothing.
He's going to, he doesn't understand it.
The people around him are too old and too incompetent to understand these technologies.
This would take real work and real effort.
And he's.
They're also on the take.
Their view is how do we get a VIG?
How do we let these companies make trillions of dollars and we get a VIG either directly or indirectly?
Hey, UAE, you can have GPU chips if you fund my kid's crypto venture or my son-in-law's golf course.
So do you.
RFK Jr., he's the head of HHS.
He is charged with the nation's health.
He oversees something called the CDC, the Center for Disease Control.
The greatest threat right now to the control of disease is the possibility that one of these frontier labs has tools that develop a super virus.
If we had...
Anybody resembling a competent head of HHS, they would already have 40 or 50 scientists and technologists sitting in the fucking offices of these companies with full force of law saying, I'm not asking you what I need to see.
I am telling you.
And then asking these models before they are allowed to be touched by anybody, how do I make a super virus and see what they say?
The CDC should be on site here.
Well, this is a guy that just eats steak for breakfast, works out in jeans, and is really quite mentally ill, from what I can tell, like in all ways.
Like he has no interest in this.
They have no, the people that should have interest in this do not, or they're on the take, or they are just, they're on the take.
This is, I don't know what else to say about this government at this point, because this is incredibly, and by the way, Mike Johnson.
You are actually a representative of the people, allegedly, and instead you are hand in glove with Trump.
You want to have dinners with these people.
And let me tell you, the minute you lose the midterms, you're going to be a footnote to these people.
They will move along from you because you didn't get them what they wanted.
They're not interested in you.
They think you're an idiot.
I know this for a fact.
And your job is to represent the American people, which nobody is representing them here.
And again, let me stress, there's not a 10% chance that AI will kill us.
There's a 10% chance that these companies and their leaders will kill us.
That is what we have to keep saying over and over again.
So the known known is the Trump administration will not be effective here, nor do they have any desire.
So what could be done?
And I never miss a chance to sound more important than I am.
I'm having dinner with James Milliken tonight, who is the president of the University of California.
Before that, he was the president of the University of Texas.
This is a- This is your board meeting.
That's right.
Congratulations, by the way.
This is a talented man with very strong political connections, with an unbelievable command of education.
This is my idea.
He needs to hire Alex Stamos.
And he needs to assemble a collection of technologists, legal scholars, social scholars, philosophers, and put together what is the largest evaluation committee and blue ribbon panel and immediately offer it up for any frontier model and then get, and I think they would sign up, Altman, Amadei, Huang, maybe Musk.
I think they would agree to this thing.
I think they are actually at the point where like, if we don't get something resembling a thoughtful, credible, a committee or a valuation board that serves as a model for a regulatory board, there have never been companies with multi-trillion dollar valuations that are this vulnerable.
I'm sitting here in my hotel room looking at the intersection between Santa Monica and Wilshire Boulevards.
If it got out that a rogue bot started fucking with the traffic lights and there were some car accidents here, The next day, these companies might have to actually shut down.
Yeah, yeah.
These companies are so—the media is waiting with bated breath for anything regarding a rogue action here.
And can I say, I do—again, I cannot stand David Sachs.
I think he's been a menace here.
But he is correct.
The motivation to slow down is not altruistic.
They are— trying to solidify their strengths, so open source, at the same time that they're warning us, they're trying to protect their businesses so they can dominate and nobody else can.
They're trying to quash innovation.
And this, I agree with him.
That said, he's been incredibly irresponsible in blocking any kind of guardrails.
And so just because you say one right thing, David, doesn't mean I think you're not a menace.
In related news, speaking of money, because money, you have to pay attention to the money here.
Sam Altman has confirmed that OpenAI will not go public this year.
hold fortune that given the current safety concerns, this would be an ill-advised moment to take the company public.
This is just an excuse.
They can't go public.
Scott, I'd like to play a prediction you made back in February.
I think that what was supposed to be the most anticipated IPO was the IPO of OpenAI in 2026, sometime this year, early 27.
I don't think that's going to happen.
Whoa.
Yeah, I think this company is...
is now is gone into full um i don't call it panic mode but it feels as if the momentum has a habit of creating more momentum and i think the momentum is really negative around this company Meanwhile, Anthropics have fully chosen NASDAQ for its IPO.
Even as it's scared of killing everybody, it will be going public, which could happen as soon as October.
So how does Dario move forward with the IPO if he's so concerned?
He's so concerned, Scott.
And what does this mean for OpenAI?
Because these are the two twin, you know, everybody else is peanuts compared to these two.
Well, except for Gemini, but that's within Google.
But go ahead.
Well, we're never ones to feel bad for tech CEOs, but...
Adario and Sam are being pulled in a lot of directions right now.
They have the society and philosophers and media saying, okay, do you really want to be the guys in your late 30s known as the greatest murderers in history?
Or be the ones that are responsible for hospital systems having the power cut off through a cyber attack that thousands of people die because they can't get their kidney dialysis or the emergency room lights go out.
They have, I got to believe that unlike Mark Zuckerberg or even Sheryl Sandberg, who I think has given way more credit for not being psychotic than she should, I get the sense, I'd like to think these guys are actually concerned for a lot of reasons.
Having said that, their job is to get their A, B, C, D, E, and F round investors who have invested hundreds of billions in their companies a return.
And a lot of these guys, the VCs and the employees have already started spending that money.
Housing prices are up 24% in San Francisco.
You don't think that all the engineers at OpenAI have already gone out and started shopping for houses?
You don't think the Series C at OpenAI is counting their money and saying, I have this basket of shit in my portfolio and my stake in the B of OpenAI is going to pay for the entire fund and I'm going to be a successful VC finally?
What?
You're delaying it?
What the fuck?
No, get out.
These guys are being pulled in a lot of different directions.
And because they have a total lack of leadership of a regulatory body that says this is what is required to have a safe frontier model.
This is what is required for a company like yours to assess the risks and put out an S1 and actually go public.
They're in no man's land.
There's too much.
Look what's happened in the market just since the kid came out and said there's a 10% chance.
of an extinction event, this is what's happened.
SoftBank is down 15%.
NVIDIA is down 3%.
CoreWave down 9%.
Oracle down 5%.
Microsoft, Amazon, and Alphabet all lower.
NASDAQ futures down 1.5% to 2%.
Not only OpenAI, NVIDIA, and Anthropic are really fragile right now, the entire economy is really fragile because Trump has made A giant bet on AI, which is responsible for 90% of the CapEx increase, 72% of the earnings growth, a ridiculous amount of the GDP growth.
So our economy is now resting on a pillar where a guy showed up, a 28-year-old showed up and said, oh, by the way, the 40% of the NASDAQ.
is kind of engaged in this thing that might be an expected death of 80 million people, if that's just, or 800 million, if you believe my 10% calculation.
This is such a failure of leadership and governance.
There should have been a regulatory body a couple of years ago telling the media, the godfather of, I apologize, I'm all over the place, the godfather of AI right now, Hinton, summarized it perfectly.
AI can go one of two ways.
There can be a very good AI.
that helps solve pancreatic cancer, makes people more productive, lowers costs, figures out a way to take care of mom more efficiently, extend life, extend quality.
There's all sorts.
Figure out threats of nuclear debt.
There's all sorts of wondrous things AI could do.
Good AI, bad AI.
I won't even go into the specifics of bad AI.
We can all imagine them.
But the fork in the road, a big component of the fork in the road is...
thoughtful leadership and multilateral cooperation of which there is none right now.
Right.
And it's all coming.
And that's the thing.
Politically, this is a powder keg.
California Governor Gavin Newsom just signed a package of 13 bills targeting social media and AI use for kids, creating some of the strongest online protection in the country.
The bills include a ban on platforms offering addictive features to users under 16, as well as stronger safeguards for AI companion chatbots.
There's also a penalty of up to a million dollars per child of social media companies found negligent and causing harm.
Still a high.
Hill to get to these people.
In signing the bills, Newsom took a victory lap for California, saying we're going to lead the nation again.
The bar is pretty damn low.
Congress is not going to follow suit on this.
Now, I get there's a lot of criticisms of some of these parts of these bills.
They don't go far enough.
They go too far.
They do this.
But, you know, this is a patchwork regulatory scheme, even if it's California.
And so we need to have Congress, Mike Johnson.
Who is going to be a footnote?
By the way, you won't have your job.
Hakeem fucking Jeffries.
You better get on this like immediately on the thing because first of all, people care about it.
You've seen them express it through data centers.
We cannot have these companies making the rules for the rest of us.
Let's just be dead fucking clear about that.
When has that ever worked?
Never.
Never.
How often has that ever worked?
Never.
The incentive.
Let's let the car makers decide on, you know who changed that?
Ralph fucking Nader by being an asshole.
And that's great.
We need that kind of, and that's what's coming for you people.
You don't understand how much people hate you.
And they feel it.
They feel it in their bones.
And so stop playing antitrust games.
Stop playing trying to solidify by finding an opportunity.
When you are screwing us, you're always trying to find an opportunity, these companies.
Anyway, I'm going to stop.
We have to move on.
Yeah, the hate's about, the populist hates about the bubble up from data centers to these frontier, to these frontier models.
It's the same stuff.
Well, you've really blown it, kids.
Let me just say, you've absolutely blown it.
Anyway, let's get, go on a quick break when we come back.
Mark Carney's power move.
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Scott, we're back.
While Donald Trump has been busy stoking the flames of a trade war with Canada, Prime Minister Mark Carney, we love him.
He's a handsome man.
He's on the rebound, working behind the scenes to pursue a relationship with the EU.
He doesn't want to fully commit.
candidate membership and is asking to be an associate member of the European Union.
I love that.
Just they're going to date.
Carney has reportedly been speaking to the EU heads of state about energy, AI, critical minerals, defense, even visa-free travel for Canadians.
He's scheduled to address the European Parliament later this year to flesh out his vision for how Canada would plug into its $21 trillion EU economy.
What do you think?
What do you think?
You love Mr.
Carney, so tell us.
Yeah, I think he's going to be Times Man of the Year.
I think he's going to win a Nobel Prize.
I think he defines forcefully yet dignified.
And I think he's decided, I mean, effectively what you're going to have is, and this is the opportunity for the next presidential candidate.
I'd get out ahead of this.
I would propose an alliance, not only a free trading zone, but a diplomatic alliance between all democracies.
And Carney, what the EU is desperate for is a leader with some power.
Because unfortunately, The whole is less than the sum of its parts because what they have is 27 veto votes.
Other than saying what they don't like, they're really, it's very difficult for them to ban around any sort of serious economic or technology policy because everyone has a say.
And this is a big opportunity, in my opinion, for Canada basically to continue in an effective way to say no, that we're not going to be bullied.
They have more in common right now with the EU than they have with the U.S.
The U.S.
will be big losers here.
We're under the impression that we can bully anybody.
We're a third of the world's economy.
We just can't do it.
Talking about my lunches, I'm having lunch with a guy who runs $150 billion, and he always says, where's the alpha?
Where are their ideas?
My best idea right now is the following.
They're $750 billion, or three quarters of a trillion dollars.
of commerce.
I think every one of those $750 billion is looking for a new provider of those services.
And I'm going to say to this guy, what European companies are posed to take a Canadian business away from America?
Should Mexico do the same thing?
Absolutely.
Huge opportunity for Mexico.
Quite frankly, I don't think it has the same.
That's a correct question and a great idea.
I would think that with Carney trying to cuddle up to the Europeans, that if you're some Finnish manufacturer of ball bearings, And Canadian, whatever it is, paper companies are buying these ball bearings from a U.S.
manufacturer in Minneapolis.
I'd be like, hey, it's going to be a little bit more expensive, but we make pretty good ball bearings in Finland.
I think there is so much into the detriment of American employees, factories and shareholders.
There is so much business that is now up for grabs.
Can I say, Trump always says we don't need anyone.
I'm like, we need people.
Like, why does he keep saying that?
Canada buys more from us than the EU or China.
Why does he think we don't need anything?
What is that mentality of like, we don't need them, we're bigger, we have no need, they need us.
This is why we have such an idolatry for business people and we shitpost our bureaucrats and our diplomats.
This is why you need someone.
who has worked in government as president, not a business person.
Business people are used to kind of raw power and leverage and IP and go fast and break things.
Yeah.
That's not how government works.
Government is alliances and diplomacy and recognizing that if we can get two thirds of the world to cooperate, we're going to win.
And that means giving.
It doesn't mean dominating Canada.
And you can't dominate.
You can't actually.
Look at those Hootie pictures.
And you can't acquire it.
Right.
It's not an M&A transaction.
It's not a real estate transaction.
It's diplomacy and cooperation and recognizing in what is probably, we take for granted one of the greatest evolutions of mankind was people recognizing it's not about conquest.
It's about cooperation.
That's how the Sapiens beat the Neanderthals.
Just so you know, they were smaller.
They were less strong.
The Japanese used to, when an airman was shot out in the Pacific and he was sitting there and he was healthy, the Japanese used to kill that person in the sea.
It was, they were inhuman to our POWs.
When they surrendered, we decided, I know.
We're going to tax every American household and we're going to rebuild this amazing nation and culture.
And we turn them into allies.
And markets and friends.
And friends.
And what do we do to Canada?
Oh, you've been a remarkable friend.
You've hit our diplomats.
You've followed us into Afghanistan.
We're going to fuck with you.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just, Tim Snyder has coined it best.
We are in the midst and witnessing superpower suicide.
It is.
It's true.
But it's one man.
It's one man with his attitudes and the rest of them go along with it.
I mean, there's a new book out by Jacob Weisberg essentially about cowards.
who are sticking with this.
And I think that's going to be one of, Trump is Trump and he will, I didn't go down badly in history, but the people around him to me who know better are the ones that I think he is stuck in a, you know, that he thinks he's a good business person, which he hasn't been really overall except by cheating.
But the people around him and know better, that's the cycle I'm really interested in talking about going forward after we rid ourselves of this.
person.
All right, let's go on a quick break.
When we come back, we'll check in on Mitch McConnell.
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Scott, we're back.
And guess who else is?
Mitch McConnell has finally returned to the Senate after three months away.
He came back in a wheelchair looking very frail, but told reporters he's there to finish the farm bill and keep backing Ukraine.
He did not take questions.
And again, did I say he looked frail?
He shouldn't be there.
McConnell was hospitalized in June after a fall, spent time in a rehabilitation center and announced via statement, not any video, back in August that he would continue his recovery at home.
Meanwhile, McConnell has continued receiving his annual Senate salary of $174,000 during the absence and, of course, free health care.
Look, as everyone knows, I'm an ageist, so take this with a grain of salt.
I don't wish him ill, but every point of data says the following.
He's alive in the sense that his heart is still beating.
And that is about it.
My dad was alive for two years after he turned 93, but he wasn't there.
And this goes again to this larger thing I keep harping on about term limits and age gating.
We age gate on the front end.
We should age gate on the back end.
The first thing that goes with cognitive decline is your ability to recognize your own cognitive decline.
I believe that Senator Feinstein, who is an American hero in my mind, I believe until the day she died, she thought, nothing wrong with me.
I'm fine.
Scott, I'm seeing it in real time with my mom.
Literally yesterday, she was like, I should go to New York and live by myself.
And I said, if you can get out of that chair and walk out the door, you're welcome to it.
And I could do it.
I'm like, well, then do it.
You know, that's the kind of conversation.
And literally, she believes she can do it, even though she actually can't do it.
It's an astonishing thing to watch, I have to say.
It's so counter truthful, you know, but she believes it in a weird way.
After my mom and dad got divorced, you know.
A dad who wasn't very involved in my life would have to spend every other weekend with me.
He had no fucking idea what to do with me, right?
So after we saw every feasible movie that came out, we used to go go-karting.
They had these go-kart tracks in the San Fernando Valley, which was, you know, that's a dream for a nine-year-old boy to go go-karting.
Oh, yeah.
I would love going go-karting today.
It's a ton of fun.
It's a ton of fun.
And they had video games.
Anyways, it was a ton of fun.
I took my father's driver's license from him when he was 84, which was a very uncomfortable thing for him.
Very upsetting.
I was in the car with him and I thought, my dad's going to kill somebody.
So I sat him down and I said, I need your driver's license.
And he said, what are you talking about?
Anyways, a very uncomfortable moment.
Three years later, I showed up one weekend and said, what do you want to do?
And he's like, I know exactly what I want to say.
It was his birthday.
He's like, remember what we used to do?
He's like, let's go go-karting.
My dad thought he could go go-karting three years after I took his driver's license from him.
He was willing to get in a go-kart.
And let me go to the other side.
Joe Biden has metastatic prostate cancer.
You know who gets metastatic prostate cancer?
82-year-olds.
We can't have these people in these positions of this much power and consequence.
Take it to Trump.
Did you see the picture?
I agree.
Biden looked actually lively compared to Trump at that 9-11 thing.
This is where we disagree.
I actually think Trump is more robust than you give him credit for.
Because he sleeps on the stage, that's why, because he sleeps in public.
Did you see the contrast in how the wives, hand in hand, looking adoringly, Laura Bush looking at George Bush like, oh, you little tiger.
I mean, Michelle and Barack Obama.
Ivanka literally looks like, okay.
Ivanka, it's Melania.
I'm sorry, Melania.
Freudian slip.
Easy thing to make.
She literally looks like...
Oh, God, how do I get away from this guy?
How do I get away?
And he was sleeping.
That picture is like the love between these two.
So I'm saying, fine, he may be more robust, but he's too old.
He slept during the 9-11 thing.
Like, stop it.
Like, are we going to stack rank elderly people?
They all suck.
Well, that's the point.
There will always be an example.
There will always be a Nelson Mandela, right?
My 15-year-old can drive, but he's not allowed to get a driver's license.
And if a 34-year-old Momdani is not allowed to run for president, then Mitch McConnell or Charles Grassley or Dianne Feinstein should not be allowed to serve at their age.
Jesus.
We have to have term limits.
Scott and I are going to say this until the end of fucking time.
It's going to happen.
We're going to make it happen.
It's like ridiculous.
Mitch McConnell, please just go home and just rest.
Or to minimum, if you're going to play baseball or you have to pass a physical, otherwise they don't have to sign your contract, I think every 12 months.
An elected official has to pass physical, otherwise they don't.
To be an airline pilot, every year my brother-in-law's father just passed away.
Talk about an amazing life.
He was a gunner in an ME-109 Messerschmitt.
When the war ended, they said, change into civilian clothes and be very clear, ride your bike west.
You want to surrender to the Americans, not the Russians.
He ended up becoming this world-class physician.
And one of the things he did later in life as a doctor in San Francisco was he was the guy that had to give pilots physicals.
And if a pilot doesn't have the gross motor skills and the cognitive skills and the reflexes, they're like, sorry, you can't fly.
See you later.
But Mitch McConnell can decide, like, you know, how much money we're going to get.
One of these people that was close to him said to me, like, well, we have to give him his dignity.
I go, we don't.
We don't have to.
He has his dignity if he leaves.
You'd give them more dignity if you mandated retirement at 72.
It makes it easier for them to leave.
Yeah.
My mother screamed at me yesterday about that.
And I was like, okay, you're staying right where you are.
It doesn't really matter.
Like, you're not tough.
We're being very kind, actually, in doing that.
Anyway, one more quick break.
We'll be back for wins and fails.
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Okay, Scott, wins and fails.
I'm going to go first.
Yes.
My fail is this ProPublica report that Russian oligarch paid for Donald Trump Jr.'s wedding.
These people have no fucking limits, these people.
Umar Kremlev, who was apparently close to Vladimir Putin, kicked in hundreds of thousands of dollars in wedding expenses.
These people have no limit to their corruption.
This is insane.
I mean, like Hunter Biden gets in trouble for a laptop and a painting and some dumb Ukraine.
It's stupid, and I agree, corrupt.
But this is astonishing.
Paying for the president's son's wedding from a Kremlin oligarch that is close to Putin.
It just seems to me we have well passed.
anything, even the smell test here.
It stinks to high heaven.
And, you know, that was just, I love ProPublica.
They are doing God's work.
I have to give them, they've broken lots of stories.
By the way, so is the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal recently.
Amazingly good stories about corruption and everything else, and also the New York Times, but this week, particularly the Washington Post and this and the Wall Street Journal.
My win, of course, is Practical Magic 2.
I haven't seen it yet.
But it killed it at the box office.
$46 million.
This is Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman.
I am an enormous Practical Magic fan.
It didn't do well when it came out, but has since become like Hocus Pocus, a very popular movie, especially among millennial straight ladies, of which I am not, but they love it.
I love this movie.
And I actually, first, I impugned my beautiful wife by saying, of course, she wouldn't have seen it because she's a movie snob.
She and I watched it on Saturday because we're going to go to see Practical Magic on, because another friend of ours said, love Practical Magic.
And we watched it and she thought it was delightful.
And it is.
It holds up rather well.
Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, especially Nicole Kidman, is very funny.
They've made a remake.
It's doing incredibly well.
They're doing a great job on social media.
It was originally directed by Griffin Dunn, who I have a lot of regard for.
I forget.
I don't know who the director is this time.
But amazingly...
thrilled that this did so well and showed, once again, certain things can have a renaissance.
There's a lot of these movies like this that are coming back and making apparently a very good movie.
So congratulations to Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman and Practical Magic 2.
Good job.
You're killing it at the box office.
Anyway, that's mine.
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you like this irreverent, lighthearted 90s cult classic where the Owens family curse.
Imagine your ultimate defense mechanism against bad relationships with a man is literal death sentence for the guy.
They die.
I mean.
They die.
It's really good.
Oh, my God.
Aidan Quinn was in it.
What happened to him?
That is the ultimate in ghosting.
I know.
It's ha ha ha ha.
Oh, it's so adorable.
Oh, it was such a good movie.
And Amanda loved it.
I don't think it was, but anyway.
I'm glad you're happy with it.
Oh, my God.
Come on.
It's such a movie that you would be so awkward during, I would imagine.
They're so cute with the coconut and Stockard Channing.
And by the way, Diane Wiest are back again.
I love Diane Wiest.
Amazing.
She's one of the best characters in one of my favorite movies, Hannah and Her Sisters.
I'm so excited.
We have a whole group of ladies going out to see it next Saturday night, and we're very excited.
One of my favorite movies is Hannah and Her Sisters.
I didn't love Hannah and Her Sisters.
What?
No, I didn't.
Oh, you got to see it again.
I'm not a Woody Allen fan.
Michael Caine, Barbara Hershey.
I love all those actors.
Mia Farrow.
I love all those actors.
I wasn't.
And the only thing that made me laugh is when, remember when, we were talking about this with someone else.
Remember when you went into like the blockbuster or the video store, there was always a porn section?
I would know about that, Kara.
Yeah, there's always a point.
My favorite thing was wandering into the one in D.C.
in DuPont Circle, and it was an old store, one of those old-timey stores, not the blockbusters, too.
And it wandered into the Bourne section, and there was a movie right there called Hannah Dusser Sisters.
Hannah Dusser Sisters.
Poor name ever except for Rambone.
Anyway.
By the way, Kara, just FYI.
What?
Nobody wanders into the Bourne section.
There are signs everywhere.
You go in there.
No one acts, hey, how did I end up here?
Porn.
Yeah, that's like catching your son on a porn site.
Yeah, it just happened.
I love that porn section.
That was such a good thing.
Porn used to be so much better that you had to go into somewhere.
I don't know.
Trust me on this one, Kara.
It's gotten pretty good.
I know, but going in is the whole thing.
Anyway, okay, win and fail, please.
Okay, so my win.
My win is Newsom's child safety laws.
He signed more, Governor Newsom signed more than a dozen online child safety bills Thursday, which is likely the strongest package of protections for young users in history.
AB-1709 barred social media platforms from offering addictive features, infinite scroll, autoplay video to users under 16.
It's the first law of its kind in the nation.
SB 1119 requires AI companion chatbot operators to assess the risks of their products posted to children, document what they find, and hand the results to an independent auditor.
It also requires age verification, limits minors' exposure to inappropriate content, and restricts AI companies from advertising to kids.
It's known as Adam's Law, named for Adam Rain, a California teenager who allegedly committed suicide after receiving directions on how to do so from chat GPT.
Whenever I'm giving advice to young people or professional advice about I really want to get promoted, I'm like, the way you get promoted is you start doing the job.
And you make it just easy.
So all they have to do is change your title and compensation.
There's no risk to promoting you because you're already doing the job.
In my view, and I'll get shit and people call me, but whatever.
Governor Newsom is already acting like a president.
These policies should have been implemented at a federal level.
And there's a huge void and he's filling it.
And imagine how hard it is for the governor of California when the reason you've gone from being the fifth largest economy in the world to the fourth largest is in no small part because of tech.
And he's the one regulating them.
It would have been much easier for the governors of Mississippi.
or of Kansas to pass this legislation because they don't have economically or politically well-connected corporations pushing back on him.
And yet he got this done.
This is a big win.
And this will be potentially a model for much needed overdue federal legislation.
Anyways, my win are this package of online safety bills from Governor Newsom in California.
My fail is essentially, I mean, We've built a trillion-dollar industry that is now grading its own homework.
Dario Amode, the guy running Anthropic, has said publicly, don't trust the industry itself to self-regulate.
He said it himself.
Sam Altman is telling Fortune it's too risky to take open AI public right now.
When the people who are building and would benefit most from this rocket are telling you not to get in it, it's not fear-mongering.
That's data.
I mean, this is...
This feels pretty serious.
We didn't let Boeing certify its own planes or Pfizer approve its own drugs.
We built the FAA and the FDA.
It's time for the AIA, the Artificial Intelligence Agency, before Congress's answer or Mike Johnson or Speaker Johnson's answer to what do we do is just let's schedule a meeting.
This is an enormous failure.
of governance.
The job of government is to prevent the public from a tragedy of the commons, while also balancing that with economic growth.
We have erred so far to the side of economic growth that even the actors who stand to benefit most economically are saying, okay, mom and dad, you probably do need to set up bedtime for me.
I probably do need to be reminded to eat.
You know, this has gone There is such a void.
The CDC needs to be embedded in these organizations.
So when you have corruption, I think the corruption here is bad.
I think it's a terrible example.
I think what's even worse is the incompetence.
And I've said this.
This is a mob family running the government.
That's the bad news.
The worst news is that Michael is running the grift.
Some of the grift is actually quite elegant.
I respect it in a weird way.
Alfredo is running the government.
The level of incompetence and the lack of any sort of long-term thinking or ability to understand technology or diplomacy or that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts with our allies, how economically stupid and damaging tariffs are, and now to totally ignore the existential risks, thinking if we ignore the existential risks, the economy will grow faster?
No.
At some point, These companies are now incredibly vulnerable to anything happening because the view is no one's home.
There's no prison guards here.
Yeah.
I think you're not worried about AI as much as surviving Donald Trump's incompetence.
That's a good way to put it.
That's what I'm most worried about.
Excellent.
Excellent ones.
I feel you're absolutely right about this.
We'll see what happens.
And by the way, it's always in their self-interest.
They will take an advantage no matter where they are.
including trying to squash competitors.
Anyway, we want to hear from you.
Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.
Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.
Okay, that's the show.
Our second show with Scott coming back.
I'm so excited he's back.
Thanks for listening to Pivot.
Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
We'll be back on Friday.
Today's show is produced by Lara Neyman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Todd Wiseman and Christine Driscoll.
Arnina Tad interviewed the episode.
Thanks also to Dubroz, Miss Severo and Dan Shallan.
Nishad Kuroa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.
Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media.
We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.
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