# Scaling Founder Led Consumer Brands Through Positioning

**Podcast:** How I Built This with Guy Raz
**Published:** 2026-08-13

## Transcript

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Hey, everyone.
Just want to let you know that this week our team is taking a much-needed break, so we chose one of our favorite episodes from the archives.
Here it is, and I hope you enjoy it.
Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
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All right, let's get to it.
Joining me today is Bobby Brown, founder of Bobby Brown Cosmetics and Jones Road Beauty.
Bobby, welcome back to How I Built This.
So nice to see you again.
You too.
So when we first had you on the show back in 2018, before I even talk about that, I have to say I find myself talking about you all the time because every time I give a speech or appear on stage somewhere, I end up talking with the makeup artist about you and how you started your incredible career doing that work and so many of them.
are so inspired by you.
I mean, people know your story, you know, by what you built this iconic brand.
And for those listening who haven't heard Bobby's original How I Built This Episode from 2018, we will put a link to it in the show notes.
It's such a good episode.
You talked about how you're doing makeup in the 80s.
And it was really this like over the top scooper glam kind of world.
And then you kind of created a new look that was more understated, natural.
This is what became known as nude makeup.
And that's how you launched And anyway, back when we had that conversation, Bobby, you were still under a non-compete with Estee Lauder, who acquired Bobby Brown.
But in 2020, that expired and you launched a new beauty brand called Jones Road.
The day my 25-year non-compete expired, I did.
That's amazing.
You know, right a week before the presidential elections, in the middle of, you know, everything, COVID and everything.
And you know what?
Sometimes you have to do something.
And if it doesn't work, then just, oh, well, that didn't work.
Let's do something else.
It's awesome.
I mean, you launched this at a time where some entrepreneurs would just say, do a victory lap and say, you know, I sold this business and my name is kind of ubiquitous.
But you decided to start something from scratch all over again.
Tell me what compelled you to do that.
What did you see?
or Nazi in the market that compelled you to do a startup again at that point in your life?
Well, I just felt even at the end of my tenure at Estee Lauder, I felt the industry was changing, the world was changing, things were shifting.
And I didn't like the way it was going.
And I really wanted to make changes at the brand.
And I couldn't.
You know, when you work for a big corporation, it's really tough.
Even when your name is on the label.
Yes.
Even when your name is on the label.
Exactly.
So there was something missing in the market.
I didn't like the texture of a lot of the clean makeup that I was playing with.
And I thought I wasn't sure if I could do better, but I wanted to try to do better.
And I did.
Yeah.
You know, you may not even have the answer.
I don't think I have the answer for this because I think it's more of an intuitive thing.
But, you know, you could have said, you know, it was awesome.
I really I'm considered a pioneer in this industry.
You are.
And maybe I'll be a mentor and an investor and, you know, kind of dabble here and there.
But to muster all your energy because a startup, as you know, better than anyone else, it is a full time 24 seven job.
It is all encompassing.
And did you feel like you just had to do it?
Like you just couldn't contain the energy that was inside of you?
It was not an option of doing it or not doing it.
When I started to make these products, I just thought, these are so simple and they're so much better.
People are going to love these.
I thought I would maybe start the company on Etsy.
Just put like the best brown eyeshadow and start there.
And then I realized, okay.
There's a different way to do this.
So no, I could not wait to launch.
And I did everything completely different the second time that I did the first time.
But I didn't look at it as hard.
I looked at it as this is so cool.
I felt renewed.
First of all, I was 62 years old when I started this brand.
I'm 68 right now.
I love that.
So it's invigorating to go back to the simple things.
And by the way, Guy, I love being in charge.
Like I just, it was time for me to be in charge.
I'm like, okay, we don't have to do that.
We don't have to have a big party.
We don't have to spend all that money.
We don't have to advertise.
We just have to tell people about it.
So, you know, you figure things out and I'm very scrappy.
I don't like to waste money.
I don't like to waste time or energy.
And I like to figure out what is worth my time and energy and how to do things without spending a ton of money.
Yeah.
I want to ask you about this thing that you pioneered, which became known as nude makeup, right?
This idea that you were wearing makeup, but you couldn't really tell.
It was a very natural look.
And I know I remember when we talked about this, some people at the time were like, oh, this is going to be a fad.
People are going to want to look like those porcelain masks from the 80s again.
But of course, decades later, nude makeup is still a big deal.
We don't call it that anymore.
Right.
It's still it's the thing.
And we're going to have some some callers today that are, you know, that are worried that, you know, that their success, limited success or whatever it might be, might be a trend or fatter.
So how do you how do you think about the thing that you're building?
Right.
That into something with more longevity, something that has more staying power, because, as I say, I mean, people people at the time said, oh, this nude makeup thing is just a trend.
And, you know, it'll pass.
Right.
And people thought that, you know, I mean, I had comments from people that said, oh, you're just putting your name on some package.
No, I'm not.
That's not how we're doing it because we didn't have fancy packaging.
But I think for anyone that is, you know, an entrepreneur and a founder, you look at what you're doing.
And yes, it's got to constantly not just.
like grow into something else, you've got to pay attention to what you have and make sure it's the best.
And sometimes you have to make little fixes and sometimes you have to make big fixes.
But you always have to make sure that it's the best thing on the market.
So people will come back for it.
People will tell their friends about it and people will rebuy the same thing over and over again.
But you need new things.
So people are interested.
So it's, you know, it's just kind of figuring out the whole ecosystem.
Yeah.
All right, Bobby, what do you say?
Let's take our first caller.
Sure.
All right.
Welcome to the advice line.
You are on with the legendary Bobby Brown.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just one brief line about your business.
Hi, guy.
Hi, Bobby.
Thanks for having me on.
My name is Mark Sokolowski.
I'm calling from Chicago, Illinois.
I'm the founder of Cabbage.
Yay, Chicago.
I'm the founder of Cabbage Labs.
We make a muscle and joint rub called Cab Dab.
It's made with cabbage leaf extract, and it has all the natural anti-inflammatory goodness of cabbage.
Wow.
Cabbage has a lot of good natural anti-inflammatory enzymes in it, and when you crush the cabbage leaf, you get all the goodies out.
That's amazing.
So wait, this is a balm, a rub that reduces joint pain, and it's made from cabbage leaf extract.
That's right.
How did you figure this out?
All right.
So I'm an orthopedic surgeon and we have a practice that's mostly first and second generation immigrants.
And for years, patients were like, oh, I just put cabbage leaf wraps on my elbow or on my shoulder or on my hips.
And at first I was like, that's crazy.
But then younger kids were telling me, oh, after I work out, I do cabbage leaf wraps on my muscles to relieve soreness.
And so I did a little bit of research.
Looked into it.
Turns out it's real.
There's actual data that shows that cabbage leaf wraps are more effective than usual care for arthritis and even for breast engorgement, any sort of inflammatory condition.
And so we said, okay, it's impractical to put cabbage leaf wraps on all day.
How do we put it into something more convenient?
This is incredible.
By the way, do you focus on shoulders or knees or everything?
I'm a spine surgeon, but I speak Polish.
So when the Polish patients come in and they see orthopedic surgeon, they're like, look, it's great that you're a spine surgeon, but you're going to take care of my knees.
I got you.
This is amazing.
So what the idea was, hey, on the side, I'll start making a balm and offer it to my patients.
Yeah, so we said, we'll try to do this in a lotion form.
And I said, I don't know anything about marketing.
So I'm going to give it for free at the end of every visit to my patients as they come.
And if it works, great.
If it doesn't work, no obligation, no worries.
And so we've just kind of grown this organically.
No advertising, just from giving it out since 2021 to every new patient at the end of a visit.
And how is the business doing?
I mean, is it making money?
Is it?
Yeah, we've been profitable since day one.
The margins on lotions are pretty good.
And we're 30,000 tubes in and we have our next order of 10,000 tubes coming.
All right.
And before we get to Bobby, your question for us today.
So I give away a ton of product to my patients and this whole doctor to patient giving the tube is like a high trust, no obligation kind of trial.
How do I scale this business beyond me?
having personal interaction with every potential customer.
Bobby, this is amazing because there are a lot of parallels, right?
You were a makeup artist and then you're like, wait, I can make my own.
makeup.
And here Mark is an orthopedic surgeon.
He's like, I can, I can make a balm that I think is gonna be effective for patients.
So I'm sure you've got a lot of thoughts.
Well, in the, in the very beginning, I gave away lipsticks, like not in the fancy packaging and in the testers.
And people said, Oh my God, this is so different.
It's so good.
I want it.
And so they would come back.
And so, you know, I, I gave a lot of product away.
You're only giving it to your customers.
So your biggest thing now is how do I get other people besides my patients to know about me?
There's this little teeny thing called PR.
It's old fashioned.
It's free.
Someone writes an article about you in the Chicago Tribune.
Is there still a Tribune or a Sun-Times, whatever the papers are?
There is, yeah.
Yeah, they write an article about you, and all of a sudden, your phone's ringing off the hook.
You've got all these people calling.
I want this cabbage.
You know, everyone has pain in their body.
Right.
Everyone has pain.
I cannot wait to try this cabbage.
My sister has back pain.
She's in Chicago.
I need your number.
But, you know, so you've got to have more people know about this.
You know, and by the way, PR can cost a little bit of money.
But, Mark, I think that it would be worthwhile considering saying, you know, let me let me get.
Let me take 10 grand or 15,000 or 20,000 and see if I can contract with a local PR firm that can get me into these papers because this story is so compelling.
But I have a better idea.
I think the 10,000 a month is great.
But why don't you hire like a Swiss Army knife, like a kid who can post, shoot, do videos of you.
like interview you and put you up on Instagram and they can call the local papers.
Like it's not that hard to get a list of who to call to.
You can hire a full-time marketing student, right?
You can hire someone that could do a bunch of things, someone who's resourceful.
And then you can always take money, you know, later, like 10,000 is a lot of money.
You could probably get a good PR firm for 5,000 too.
That's true.
That's true.
By the way, how big are the tubes you're giving away?
How many ounces?
They're 100 milliliter.
We don't have sample products, so we give away the full-size product.
See, that's also a problem.
You're giving away too much.
You've got to give away a smaller version.
So what I would do is I would go to the container store and buy a bunch of empty containers and squeeze and just make little samples, however much you think people need for an area, and then just keep them in your pocket.
And when you're at a restaurant or you're whatever...
You know, just start handing it out with the card where they can order it.
Give them a 10% discount.
Like, you know, that old-fashioned marketing doesn't really cost anything.
I also think that it's worthwhile, and I'm sure you're in medical professional organizations and maybe you go to conferences, if there's a community that you can kind of bring in, particularly like, you know.
I know this may or may not resonate, but chiropractors, a lot of people go to chiropractors.
I don't know what you think about them, but a lot of people trust them.
And to me, like that would be a natural channel where you could get, you know, maybe you again, you create these smaller samples and it's, you know, and if somebody goes to the website, they can get a free trial and you pay for shipping or something like that.
Yeah, that's a great idea.
I definitely, definitely think that we could expand our distribution.
We definitely could do smaller samples to make it more economical, just to give away lots and lots of them.
Bobby, I have a question for you.
Mark is a very busy guy, okay?
He is an orthopedic surgeon.
There's got to be a lot of demand for his time.
And this is a side project.
You were a makeup artist.
You were very busy.
How would you recommend he starts to balance these things out?
Because, look, let's be honest, most of his income is coming from being a surgeon.
I mean, come on.
Dr.
Oz was a heart surgeon.
So you start somewhere and you go whatever pace you're comfortable with.
And how could you get things done while you're actually at work?
Just whether it's a meeting in the morning with who's going to help you, this kid that you're going to hire, and then at the end of the day you check in with them.
Things are working.
The business is continuing because, you know, you have someone to do that.
But there's no rush for this to kind of take off.
It's going to happen, especially the more people that know about it.
Yeah, I think it's a great idea.
Yeah.
I want to take a cabbage bath right now.
Yeah, see?
I woke up with some lower back pain from doing exercise last night.
Yep.
Mark Sokolowski, thank you so much for calling in.
The product's called Cab Dab.
Good luck.
Congrats.
It's awesome.
Thank you guys very much for having me.
Thank you.
You know, now I'm wondering if this will work with sauerkraut.
Like if you can spread sauerkraut.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Just salt and cabbage.
That's all it is.
You could, but you wouldn't want to.
Well, I mean, I love sauerkraut.
I know sauerkraut is good for your gut, but I don't think you'd want it on your extremities.
All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
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Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is the legendary Bobby Brown, founder of Bobby Brown Cosmetics and Jones Road Beauty.
And we are ready for our next caller.
Hello, caller.
Hi, Bobby.
Hi, Guy.
I am such a fan of both of you guys.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm Abby Roselier.
I'm calling from Dallas, Texas.
And I'm the founder and owner of Abby Rose, which is basically an online custom phone case business.
So we do, you can put anything on a phone case pretty much is our tagline.
So we do custom phone cases and we even created the first phone case organizer that the world has seen.
Wow.
Thank you for calling in, Abby.
Tell me how you, and I'm just, I mean, you seem like you're.
pretty young entrepreneur, which is awesome.
I love that.
Do you mind sharing how old you are?
Yeah, I'm 23.
So I started it when I was 16.
And now I'm 23.
I know.
Congrats.
That's awesome.
Tell me how this started.
Yeah, it's, um, there's kind of bits and pieces to the story because I had little small businesses since like fifth grade.
It'd be like duct tape pins.
I would sparkle people's chargers.
But they would all just last a month because I would just sell it to my school friends and then get over it.
So I actually sold phone cases in eighth grade, made a thousand bucks, got over it.
And then in high school, I had to be homeschooled for my sport, acrobatic gymnastics, got the itch to sell again, had the phone case supplies, started it, blew up during COVID.
And here we are.
Wait, wow.
Just double click for a minute.
Acrobatic gymnastics, that was your sport.
So is that like trapeze and flying off?
What is that?
No, I know.
Everyone thinks just like circus and clowns almost.
But it's like a mix of cheer and gymnastics.
So it's partner-based sports.
You throw them, you catch them, but it's with two or three people instead of a whole cheer team.
Yeah.
It's like being an entrepreneur.
Yeah, exactly.
So you had to be homeschooled because you were a competitive acrobatic gymnast.
And that's when you started this business.
Yes, Abby Rose.
Yeah, we had to actually got pulled from the middle of my junior year because we had to do two practices a day.
So I had to go homeschooled.
And yeah, that's when I had the idea for Abby Rose and just.
And so what you were initially what you were buying, people would order the custom cases and then you would work with a third party and have them made.
Like, how did it work?
Yeah.
So it didn't start as customized.
I kind of just, well, I actually started drawing designs.
I'm horrible at designing, but nobody would design for me because I was just 16 not knowing what I was doing.
So I started just selling basic designs to my school friends and to my acro friends.
And I would heat press the design onto the phone case.
So you heat press the design with sublimation.
ink and then the phone case is made.
It's a little complex, but yeah, that's kind of how it works.
You would custom make them originally?
Yes.
Yourself?
Yes.
And now, and tell me how the business is doing that.
Give me a sort of a sense of where you are.
Yeah, so it has been going crazy, specifically this past year, because I just graduated from college, and we've seen like a 50% growth from last year.
All the phone cases are still being handmade, actually, by my sister.
I just do the marketing, the customer service, the live streams.
And then my mom is also involved, my sister, my dad and my brother.
It's kind of all just like this family-run business, and we actually just purchased our supplier.
So things are, yeah.
Wow.
And so have you guys broken a million dollars?
in sales?
Not in one year.
We've done over 2 million in total.
Yeah.
No, that's awesome.
Okay.
But so you've easily, you've broken a hundred, $200,000 a year.
Oh, for sure.
Awesome.
And, and most of what you're doing, the most of your sort of channel is through social media, like going, doing, doing things live or whatever.
Yes.
Yes.
Going live, selling live, shipping live, everything is live.
How many followers do you have?
TikTok is our strongest one.
We actually just hit 400,000 a few days ago because we have one blowing up.
And then like 111,000 on Instagram.
All right.
Before we bring Bobby Brown in, just tell us what your question is.
Yes.
So basically all of our growth has been organic social media and that's been great, but it's been this steady linear growth.
And in order to keep this going and support my whole family, we need to have more of an explosive growth soon.
So my question is if we just double down on what's working, keep up the lives and the content, or if we look into wholesale or paid advertising because we haven't really done that before.
Yeah.
You're trying to scale to a five, hopefully greater million dollar business.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
What do you think?
Well, first of all, what you're doing is working and not everything.
Why does everyone think every business has to be like a rocket ship?
It's got it's got to grow.
But but it's also sometimes if things are so explosive and big, like, you know, we've we've had TikTok moments that are like, you know, like.
we could not keep up with it.
It happened.
And then you look a year later and you're like, how are we going to anniversary that?
So that's, I'm not going to worry and figure out what else can I do to, you know, to go viral?
No, let's look at the business.
What's working?
What's not working?
What, what do I not need to be spending as much money on or time on?
You have a big success on social.
And I mean, have you done a sub stack?
Have you done YouTube?
You know, there's other things you could do.
Are you doing like other company giveaways and collabs?
Like, yeah, it's a good thing.
Yeah, it's like all of those things together have been keeping us going.
We love doing collabs with other companies.
We love social media.
I started up my YouTube channel, but it's I guess our biggest struggle right now is if like if I'm not online, like sales aren't coming in.
So it's almost like my presence has to like constantly be online for sales to keep going.
Tough.
Yeah.
It's just tough.
Yeah.
You have to constantly be making videos in order for you to get sales.
Oh, absolutely.
Or just live because they want to see their order live.
They want to hear the cha-ching and get their freebie, you know?
Well, you started something that's working.
You can't walk away from it.
How do you evolve it?
Maybe you bring your sister in or you bring a guest, you know, friend or something and just try to experiment and, you know, figure out a way.
Like maybe it doesn't have to be live.
I know there's a way.
you could tape it to be live or there's different things that you could that you could do but do you really want to be in retail that is a whole nother set of of problems and issues it sounds great it's really expensive yeah like it's really expensive I guess that's what we're wondering because it seems like that's what all of our competitors are doing you know they'll they'll be in urban they'll be in target so it's like Do we follow that or do we, you know?
You could try as a pop-up or like Target and I guess Walmart has these great incubator programs for young brands and founders.
And, you know, there's a way you could like dip your toe into it as a test and see if it's something.
But you've got to go try those things out.
I think that's great advice.
And I want to mention, I think you mentioned Urban Outfitters, which to me seems like a natural.
place to try and experiment.
But I want to go back to this challenge that you face, which is right now your biggest channel is you.
And you can't scale you, right?
You can't make a million Abbeys, but maybe you can.
And that's a question I have, which is, can you feature other faces of Abby Rose?
Can you bring in other people and train them to be sales reps with a commission?
I mean, is that something that you've thought about or experimented with?
Honestly, no.
That's a great idea, though.
I think it's always hesitant when it's your business.
It's like your baby and, you know, just someone else doing the role you do is scary.
So I just need to get over that.
But I think that's a great idea.
Just finding like bubbly, energetic.
Try it once.
Try it once and just do it once.
See if you like it.
See if it works.
And using your accounts, right?
Having the person go on your account and say, hey, I'm here today.
Abby, you know, is out at Urban Outfitters doing a pop-up and I'm going to tell you, you know, something like that.
Or your mother or your father.
Like use your family.
Like, you know, use your whatever, your next door neighbor, your grandma, your teacher.
Like people love that.
Instead of trying to be like everybody else, like what's unique about you that's comfortable for you.
And it doesn't have to be a big strategic anything.
You just try it and say, oh, my God, that's great.
And it might not work.
Yeah.
And they know all the family.
They know Papa Rose, Mama Rose.
And so I guess I've just never thought, like, let's try one with just them, you know, if I'm elsewhere.
Who are your customers, Abby?
Are they mainly young women?
You know what?
I've learned a lot about this since graduating college because I thought it was typically, you know, high school and college students.
But I've actually realized a lot of people are stay at home moms.
That's who I'm talking.
Awesome.
Yeah.
So on lives, a lot of them are stay at home moms, you know, like watching their kids and just wanting like a community.
So it's anywhere from like middle school, high school, college, stay at home, just young females looking for friends and a community.
Yeah.
Keep building your community.
I love the phone that holds the three lip glosses.
Oh, yeah.
Look at that.
That's so cool, right?
Yeah.
I wanted to go deeper in that.
I'm like, okay.
I'm like, we're launching some new lip glosses next year.
Let me go look at it.
Oh, my gosh.
Stop.
That's my dream.
Yeah.
I mean, who knew that you could carry lip glosses in your phone case?
I mean, there's...
The possibilities are endless.
Oh, yeah.
We just got that prototype in, and I was like, oh, yeah.
I have a quick question for you, Abby.
Because you mentioned sort of moms, which is super cool.
Have you tried any, like, user-generated content, like, you know, post your design or maybe design your dream case, and the winner will get to make it with me live, you know, in real time or something?
Yeah, we've done design contests with our customers where they send in their submissions, but never really interacting live with the winners.
So that's a really good idea for that.
Yeah, that's a great idea.
I want to see like 20 different Abby Roses, like not obviously Abby Rose, but like different people just coming on.
And that's how you build your sales team.
Yes, that sounds amazing.
And a weight is already lifted off my shoulders just thinking about that.
So, yeah, I agree.
Bobby, I'm curious in a because cosmetics, you know, this is like one of those things where people say, oh, the cosmetics industry is such a crowded marketplace.
But I don't believe in that.
I think a good product can always break through.
Right.
A good product, a well designed product and well marketed.
And you know that better than anybody else.
When you started Bobby Brown, people said that.
Right.
The world doesn't need another lipstick.
Absolutely.
People said that all the time.
And, you know, I and I always say I didn't invent lipstick.
I reinvented it.
So it's the same thing with your phone cases.
Right.
It's like you didn't invent a phone case.
But, you know, your your biggest challenge is also how do you make sure that people know that your phone case is cooler, more fun and better?
You know, you have to show them.
Yeah.
Abby, good luck.
Thank you.
Abby Rose is the brand.
Congrats.
Thanks for calling in.
Thank you, guys.
Thank you.
Bye.
Good luck.
Thank you.
Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, you think like, and I'm sure you've had this experience too, Bobby, where I look at a product like this and I'm thinking, okay, this is driven by sort of teenage girls, you know, college students, young women, but actually it's moms, right?
It's moms probably in their 30s, 40s.
Older, it's a little bit like, you know, we did an episode of the show a couple weeks ago about crumble cookies.
And that brand was really propelled and still is by teenage girls who are super psyched about the drop, you know, the flavor drop every week.
So I'm sure you've seen this with your, you know, your products where some things you make are just take off with like a certain demographic.
And surprisingly so.
I mean, when Jones Road first launched, there was women over 40 that were buying the products.
Now there's more and more, I guess the millennials are buying it.
And I've been asked many times, how do you market to all the different age groups?
And I say I don't market to the different age groups.
I just market to women that want to look natural and pretty.
Yeah, it's so cool.
I mean, connecting with your...
customer is the most important thing.
Yes, to have a great product is the most important, but then connecting with your customer.
And it sounds like she's on her way.
All right, we're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with the Bobby Brown.
Bobby, what do you say?
You ready to bring in our next caller?
I'm ready.
Welcome to the advice line you were on with Bobby Brown.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Of course.
What's going on, Guy and Bobby?
Great to meet you guys.
I'm calling in from Charlotte, North Carolina.
And my name's Henry.
I'm the co-founder of Tannin Oral Care, which is a lifestyle-centered, wellness-based oral care company.
And we are the inventors of the world's first post-coffee mouth rinse.
Welcome.
So wait, this is a...
Oral care.
So it's post-coffee what?
Tell me a little bit more about this product.
Yeah.
So it's a post-coffee mouth rinse.
So you know that mouth rinse.
Do we have any coffee drinkers?
I mean, Guy, Bobby, you guys both drink coffee.
Yeah, I love coffee.
Two hands, right?
It's beautiful.
It's that moment right after coffee is really what we originally designed this product for.
I was working at a coffee shop at the time making videos.
I would bring this toothbrush to the coffee shop, which was both gross.
And also I learned that it's actually best to wait 30 minutes after your last sip to brush your teeth because you can actually wear your enamel that has just been softened by the acid from the coffee.
And so I started looking for a solution and was just amazed that no one had ever made anything oral care related.
for coffee drinkers, very sensitive in my mouth.
And I was living with my roommate at the time, his name's Joe, and we just got fascinated by this.
And we started by, one, like posting up in a super busy part of Charlotte and just asking people, like, are you having this problem too?
Like, what do you do to clean your mouth after coffee?
And realizing that it was just one of those things that people were thinking about without really thinking about it, something that they wanted a solution for.
And we selfishly also wanted that solution.
Huh.
Yeah.
Oral care, is that the same as a mouthwash?
So the mouthwash is really, this is kind of, and we'll get into this in the question, I guess, but we started by looking, we wanted to re-engineer a mouthwash that would be perfect for coffee drinkers.
And so we went and got every mouthwash from the shelves, pulled it off, put ingredients into a massive spreadsheet and started researching these ingredients.
And we were pretty flabbergasted to learn that maybe you get...
You guys have heard this, that a lot of mouthwash is actually horrible for your health.
It's packed with synthetic ingredients, dyes.
It's alcohol-based.
It actually dries out your mouth even more.
And we've just learned so much about the oral microbiome, about oral care in recent years, that it was one of those things where we just felt like there hadn't been a product that had caught up with the research.
What is your background?
Do you have a background in chemistry or science?
So no, I don't.
I've definitely been an entrepreneur my whole life, but I would say my fascination with oral care has carried me through my entire life.
I think it, you know, like all good stories, probably started with some childhood trauma.
I think I came home from the dentist when I was eight and I had four cavities and my brothers just made so much fun of me.
So I swore from that day, I'm like, okay, I'm never getting another cavity.
And so I've just been very...
I've been aware of my oral care ever since, and I've been doing the brush and the flossing, everything that I feel like the dentists are telling me, but still having issues.
And that's kind of one of the things that, too, led me to look at coffee and be like, okay, this is a real thing.
This is actually having a real impact.
And how did you start to make this product?
I mean, how did you start to come up with the formulation?
Yeah, I mean, it started.
I thankfully had some dentists in my network.
We would meet with them, and me and my friend Joe literally ordered.
a chemistry set off of amazon and i would meet with my high school chemistry teacher and we would just start mixing and just start like i mean getting deep into the research of natural ingredients what is really what is in these mouthwashes but like what is actually working and i think i've always connected with bobby's story that idea of reinventing lipstick it's like people didn't say that we needed another mouthwash but i think what we wanted to do was really just start from square one what do you what do you want in a mouthwash that's really going to make it as as effective as possible All right, tell me, tell us your question, and then we'll dive in a little bit deeper.
We're at this point where people know us, and we've taken a very localized approach in Charlotte.
People really know us in the city as the coffee mouth rents.
But what we want to create is a brand, like a legacy brand, that can really redefine and have staying power as an oral care brand.
So I wanted to get your thoughts on how you would recommend we move forward to kind of position ourselves in that way and continue to work towards that.
All right.
A lot to dive into.
Bobby?
Well, I have a question.
As soon as I saw your package, I mean, I love your Instagram.
It's very cool.
You guys are both, you know, like cool looking and I love the vibe.
But my husband, who is a mouthwash guy, who's now using natural mouthwash, he's not a coffee drinker and he hates coffee.
So even if I bought him your mouthwash that said coffee on it, he'd say yuck.
Right.
So what is the difference between that and a regular one?
And is there a way?
And how are you going to position another mouthwash that's not necessarily tied to coffee?
Yeah, it's a great question.
So I think, like I said, we set out to make this coffee mouthwash.
And I think we, in the process, created the best natural mouthwash on the market, humbly.
Like, I just, I really do think we've done that.
And so I think that's what I'm struggling with.
Like, do we expand the niche?
And we say it's great for coffee, wine and tea in any moment you may need it in between.
Or do we really stay niched down to coffee?
Because there is obviously people that really connect with that story of coffee.
I think my opinion, and it's only my opinion, is when you reach a certain point and you say, yes, we're going to reimagine the packaging, and then you reimagine the marketing.
It started as for coffee, but we've learned that even if you're not a coffee drinker, it's this.
If you're a wine drinker or you're just someone that people that have stomach issues sometimes could use a little bit of mouthwash.
So that would be my suggestion because I think...
just doing the coffee thing is really cool and different, but I think there's an opportunity to expand that.
I totally agree.
I mean, I think that right now, if you look at the bottle, I'm looking at the website, it says post coffee, right?
We're into a coffee side effects.
It says for coffee drinkers, buy coffee drinkers.
So this is really...
It's a cool product.
It's very niche right now.
You can build a business around a niche product.
That happens all the time.
But there are limits to how big you can take that, right?
Especially people like, well, I don't drink coffee.
Or I don't really have this problem.
I like the taste of coffee breath or whatever.
I want to ask you, before we drill into that, I want to ask you a question about the name, tannin.
Because when I think of tannin, I think of like tannins in wine or tea.
There's tannins in there.
Why is it called tannin?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So tannins are also in coffee.
They're really in a lot of natural things.
So these compounds in trees and plants and probably know that.
So while the things that give it this natural flavor, it's also the thing that dries out the mouth, which causes a lot of the oral health issues.
So quite literally, we're rinsing those tannins out of the mouth when you talk about coffee or wine or tea.
But it also speaks to the just very natural elements of the brand.
Like all our products are natural.
We use sustainable ingredients, our sustainable materials for our packaging.
So it's kind of this dual meaning.
And we thought it was a cool word.
You know, one of the things that comes to mind is, and Bob, you mentioned their Instagram.
And you guys are young.
You're cool.
You've got, you know, your storytellers.
I wonder whether you guys can talk about like oral microbiome or like, you know, the way we're washing our mouths is all wrong.
Or, you know, do you have bad breath?
Or even if you don't, like you're not cleaning your mouth right in the right way.
Like just starting that way and thinking about, and I think, Bobby, you alluded to this, overall mouth health, right?
Or whatever, microbiome health.
And by the way, how could you not have like either a little spray eventually or mints?
Lozenges, toothpastes.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, no, I think you're right on, Guy.
And that's definitely exactly where we want to bring it.
I think we've been struggling a little bit to make that positioning.
But I mean, I think we've grown even more convinced of the importance of oral care as we've done this.
And everyone's talking about the gut, right, the gut biome.
But very few people are talking about the oral microbiome and the connection that it has to the gut, the connection that it has to total health.
And so I love that idea, Guy.
I, you know, I'm looking at packaging, you know, all natural, vegan, alcohol-free, fluoride-free.
I want to know what's in it, and I feel like you should make that a little clearer in your – I see aloe leaves in a picture.
But like it would be cool if on the – you know how RX bars is like three eggs and two dates and one – four almonds.
Like it's so clear.
I wonder if you could do a version of that without giving away your secrets obviously.
I want to know what's in this and why is this better for me than Listerine?
And what it tastes like.
I want to know what it tastes like.
Is it minty?
Yeah, no, it's all good points.
I think we've wrestled a little bit with oral care, just wondering how much do people really want to know in oral care because some of the names are a little funkier.
Like it's not like a date or an egg white.
But I also do think talking about positioning to wellness, just the simplicity of really.
Educating people to those ingredients and letting people in on our process is a great idea.
Yeah.
I think you have an opportunity and a challenge, right, which is you don't want to just appeal to coffee drinkers.
And also you want to show people that what this is is going to benefit them.
And I think a big part of doing that is really – and maybe starting out by looking for a tribe.
Maybe it is young men like you.
Maybe you start that way and you try and appeal to that group and you build from that group.
I mean, our ex-bars started out with CrossFitters at CrossFit gyms.
Now everybody, working parents, mommies, everybody's eating them on the go, but that's not how they started.
Yeah, maybe it could be in a gym.
It could be in a dentist office.
Yeah, we've been, I think we've been trying to lean into this kind of social wellness movement that's happening, like cold plunges, saunas, kind of where people are doing that kind of stuff.
There's a great community in Charlotte that we've really tapped into.
I think we found a little niche there.
And so I hear what you guys are saying.
I'm like, really grow in that niche.
Like, what does it look like to really lean into that?
Because I do think, you know, at least that I've seen no oral care company has really aligned to the wellness movement.
where people are thinking about oral care when it comes to wellness.
Cool.
Yeah.
All right.
Awesome.
Thanks, guys.
Henry Davis, a product is called Tannin Mouth Rinse.
Tannin Oral Care is a company.
Good luck.
Thanks for calling in.
Yeah, good luck with everything.
Cheers, guys.
Thank you.
You know, it is interesting.
You know, it is complicated when you're a young founder and there's so many different directions to go.
And, you know, my biggest advice is don't jump into something, but just like, like try it, like dip your toes in and see.
And even if it's just you're putting it in your dentist's office and his patients are using it, or maybe you put it in, you know, your Equinox, just in one gym, like you just kind of dip your toe into those things.
you know, you don't, and don't get overwhelmed to think, Oh, well, if I only had the money, if I only had, you know, the next series, like, like grow your business first.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
And he's got to look at the competition.
There are a lot of clean mouthwashes on the market, like what, you know, and, and there's a couple mouthwashes that are, you know, Dennis found, you know, and they're more natural ingredients.
So it's good to kind of know what's out there and position yourself away differently.
They are going to have a slightly harder battle to wage, but if they do it right, which is why I think maybe trying to get a certain tribe of users first, it could work.
It could succeed.
Yeah.
Bobby, before I let you go, one last question for you.
If you could go back to Bobby Brown, makeup artist, getting people ready for their TV or whatever video shoots, and you could give her advice as she was starting to build this business out.
what would have been useful for her to know?
That she should learn to breathe.
She should learn to shut off your brain sometimes and learn to recover.
That's the same thing I'm telling myself now.
I'm a work in progress, as we all are.
Love that so much.
That's Bobby Brown, founder of Bobby Brown Cosmetics and Jones Road Beauty.
And by the way, we recently got an update from that last caller, Henry.
He says that coffee will always be an important part of Tannin's origin story.
But now they're repositioning the brand around a new prebiotic mouth rinse set to launch in January of 2027.
Also, if you haven't heard Bobby's original How I Built This episode, you've got to go check it out.
It's an incredible story.
And here is one of my...
favorite moments from that episode.
I used to hire and interview every person that walked in that brand.
And then I didn't anymore.
And all of a sudden there were people working on my brand that I never met before and that I might not have hired.
And, you know, it was a struggle.
And I tried to let go of the details.
But then I realized the details were what makes the company so special.
And so...
I kept thinking I could fix it.
If we could just do this, if I could get this, it could be better.
And it didn't get better.
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