# EtherFi Pivots to Crypto Neobank With Enhanced Security

**Podcast:** The Milk Road Show
**Published:** 2026-07-31

## Transcript

I'm excited about doing things that you cannot do in tri-fine institutions.
And some of that is going to...
It's part of some of the announcements that we're going to be making in EtherFi summer.
Everyone knows that crypto can help to bank the unbanked, but what is an on-chain neobank and how did EtherFi become one?
What do crypto users need to know about all of this?
Hello and welcome to The Milk Road Show, the podcast that knows that neobanks are a lot cooler than neopets.
And that's some stiff competition.
I'm your host, John Gillen.
Today is Wednesday, July 20th.
We will be releasing this episode on Friday.
And today we are joined by Mike Silagazi.
Mike is the founder and CEO of EtherFi, a non-custodial Ethereum liquid staking protocol launched in 2022 that has grown into a crypto neobank offering staking, yield products, and many other related services.
Mike is going to give us an updated outlook on one of the coolest projects in crypto.
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Share this episode with somebody who's going to enjoy it.
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And without further ado, welcome to the Milk Road Show.
Mike, how are you today, sir?
Good.
Yeah, great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to talk to you.
There's a lot of big things happening at Etherfy.
But before we get to that, I wanted to kind of get an updated refresh for you.
I don't want to rehash the whole Kelp Thal situation, but I'm really curious.
We've had a lot of hacks, a lot of problems in DeFi this year.
A lot of those have been recovered from, though.
And I'm curious your thoughts on what is the state of DeFi now and what is your updated outlook on the ecosystem overall here?
Yeah, look, there's certainly a lot of uncertainty out there.
because obviously with these AI models being released, people have concerns that a lot of legacy protocols or just projects in general are going to get compromised because of this new tooling that's available.
On the flip side of it, that same tooling is of course available to projects and the ones that are well maintained.
are using that tooling to try and find vulnerabilities before they release anything.
So it's a bit of a cat and mouse kind of game.
But that's creating a lot of uncertainty.
People, in many cases we've seen, have pulled back from DeFi.
As in, they're de-risking, they're moving stuff to centralized custodians.
But we are starting to see people come back, I think, especially with...
Fable being released.
At least, you know, initially, they're not appearing to be a major wave of hacks.
People are getting a little bit of confidence back.
Well, I'm glad to hear some confidence is coming back.
My confidence has never been shaken, but I'm curious what your strategy is to try to win institutional trust for a non-custodial protocol like EtherFi.
Is there a specific strategy or messaging that you kind of go to for that?
And how do you go about building that institutional trust?
Yeah, so there's a lot that we're doing that in many ways is just highlighting all the things that we've already done.
So, of course, you know.
countless audits at this point of the protocols, a lot of security hardening that we've been doing, but we're also doubling down and then just doing a lot more.
One of the things I talked about a fair bit after the CALP hack is that we are going to move away from a lot of the decentralization theater that a lot of DeFi protocols engage in, which is where they make it very difficult for themselves to be able to protect their users while really not materially impacting the level of decentralization of their protocols.
So for example, if a protocol has upgradable contracts, you can put a lot of window dressing on that, but the fact is the contracts are upgradable.
You just want to make sure that you are able to take action if the protocol is compromised in some way while preserving some level of transparency and decentralization that...
frequently takes the form of things like time locks, governance, and other procedural things that go into making changes or upgrades.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I think that decentralization is great, but theater is not.
So I think focusing on real things is a good strategy there.
I'm curious if there is still anything going on with DeFi United.
In the wake of the KelpDAO attack, there was this huge grassroots movement to sort of like plug the gap from the hack.
And it was like really cool to see the ecosystem rally like this.
Has that wound down now that like the crisis is over or is there still something going on with DeFi United?
Where is that today?
Well, so that was an initiative put together by Aave.
I believe that was specifically for the purpose of securing and stabilizing DeFi in the wake of the CalPAC.
So I guess it hasn't wound down in the sense that the assets are there.
They've gone in.
They've backfilled all the losses.
But I don't know that there's an active sort of fundraising effort going on anymore.
Okay, cool.
Well, I think that was one of the coolest things we did in crypto this year.
But all right, cool.
It's a remarkable example of a market that self-regulated doesn't quite feel like the right word.
But I think in TradFi and perhaps in certain...
situations in DeFi, what tends to happen when bad things happen, whether it's an attack or losses that arise from one reason or another, is people sort of retrench, they hide behind lawyers and customers, users end up kind of holding the bag and it's bad for everybody.
People often will look to, I guess, centralized options for trying to protect users against that for regulating the market in the hopes of making it safer.
But in the end, what it ends up creating is just making a market that's much more brittle.
This is an example where, look, it would have been very easy and perhaps it even would have been the default path that people are on to do exactly that, to sort of re-franchise behind lawyers.
you know, declare bankruptcy and then, you know, all of DeFi would have kind of blown up with that.
But, you know, a lot of people kind of rose to the challenge, came together, you know, put in money that they didn't have to put in.
You know, it wasn't sort of directly in their interest to do so.
It was more of a long-term play.
And, you know, the various players in the market just...
collegially work together to ensure that the market was stabilized.
So this is, I mean, this is almost like the dream, right?
Of a free market that actually ends up benefiting and protecting people better than a more centralized alternative.
Right.
Yeah.
And the ecosystem takes care of itself.
Yeah.
So yeah, I really appreciate that commentary.
I was really excited by that too, to see that response.
Mike, I want to talk about EtherFi now.
And I thought a good place to start this conversation would be with restaking.
And if you could just give us kind of a refresher on that.
EtherFi is the largest liquid restaking protocol.
You guys secure more than three quarters of the market for restaking.
What is restaking and why is EtherFi still a leader on this?
We have started winding down the restaking portion of the protocol.
I think we're almost entirely just vanilla staking now.
Restaking was the...
So staking was our first product, right?
It's part of a whole suite of products that we now have as part of this neobank.
Staking with restaking layered in was the first product.
Look, I think it was a thesis that maybe arguably was either incorrect or too early.
I think probably the latter, that there was going to be a need to reuse staked Ethereum as a layer of security for other crypto economic networks.
The challenge is there's just not that many.
useful crypto economic networks out there and there wasn't this groundswell of projects that found product market fit.
And so a lot of that has just started winding down.
So we've pulled out a lot of our ETH from restaking.
I'm still hopeful one day it's something that will reemerge.
But for now, we've added that.
So for the most part, you can think of it either by staking or stake product as just vanilla staking with, I would say, additional security protections that we've built in, like built-in insurance.
I believe we're the only liquid staking protocol that has built-in slashing insurance.
So that's pretty novel.
We also have a lot of active monitoring protections built in.
So what we have is the ability to pause and block malicious transactions.
So there's an escalation of governance process around that, but it allows us to intervene very rapidly, instantaneously, if malicious activity is detected.
Hence, my comments around kind of...
removing a lot of the decentralization theater.
You know, we don't need to do a two-week vote in order to pause the contracts or whatever.
We have the ability to just do that.
And a variety of other things that we've done to try and make the protocol more secure.
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Well, this gets to the idea of safe staking, which I've heard Etherify talking about a lot.
You guys published an article on your website just, I think, earlier this month called Safe Staking from Doctrine to Code.
And I'm curious if you could explain just this idea of safe staking as a concept and then how you've gone about productizing this into your offerings today.
Yeah, so I guess I kind of...
Well, you touched on it a little bit, but just drill down on that.
Yeah, what is safe staking?
Yeah, so, I mean, safe staking just refers to all of these different...
mechanisms that we've put in place to make etherified liquid staking as safe as it can.
So insurance is one aspect of it.
Formal verification of the contracts is another aspect of it, which is where the smart contracts themselves are, you can think of it as putting together a model, like a mathematical model of the contracts and then proving that Certain invariants can't be violated.
In other words, it depends on how you construct the invariants and the rules, but it to some degree creates confidence that the contracts can't be hacked in certain ways.
Putting in place a lot of these active monitoring measures, so the ability to pause or blacklist malicious actors, this is something that has been...
a bit of a sacred cow, I guess, in a lot of DeFi protocols is the ability to blacklist addresses.
But I mean, we just think it's necessary in this environment.
It's something that goes through a governance process in that you can pause or blacklist addresses and then it has to be ratified, but at least it lets you act very quickly.
So those are just some examples.
I mean, there's other things we've done in terms of hardening our oracles.
A lot of other kind of, you know, maybe boring technical things.
But it's just our way of just really focusing on safety because I think that's in this environment that just matters more than anything to people in DeFi.
Mike, we've seen record demand for Ethereum staking and record lows.
There's nobody trying to get out in the staking queue from the Ethereum contract right now.
I'm curious your thoughts on that.
How do you think about this swell of demand we've seen for Ethereum staking?
And what's Etherify's strategy to compete in that market?
So yeah, Etherify is the second largest DeFi staking protocol.
So we've done, I think, a pretty good job of scaling.
We are the most widely used DeFi staking protocol in DeFi.
So, you know, lots of people just stake their ETH and hold it.
But when they use it in DeFi for, you know, for borrowing, for leverage, for trading, Etherify tends to be the one that they choose.
You know, we're also the most widely used liquid staking protocol on DAT, institutional DAT side.
So that includes digital asset treasury companies like Sharplink.
Those are, I mean, there's a lot of work that we're doing to try and make it, good and attractive.
And yeah, those are just some examples.
Okay, cool.
Well, you guys have moved beyond just staking.
And you're now offering some other products, which I want to learn more about to use a yield vaults product you have called liquid and a non custodial spending products in the form of a card called cash.
And I'm curious if you tell us more about both liquid and cash and why you decided to add these product offerings to etherify suite of products.
Yeah, so the The vision for this was actually there really from day one.
The idea to build this integrated, vertically integrated platform that develops into essentially a banking alternative, what we call a DeFi bank or what some have called a crypto, you know, crypto neobank.
And in some ways, this is the holy grail of DeFi, right?
This is, you know, allows you to have truly sovereign money to get off of TradFi rails, to actually have control over your...
your assets and have the freedom, flexibility and rewards that that offers.
So, I mean, ultimately, the reason it's interesting is because it's just a better product.
If you're using Chase or any of the Revolut or any of the TradFi institutions, what EtherFi ultimately offers is just a better product.
It pays higher cash back, it pays higher reward on your your asset gives you more control and more flexibility.
Like that's why it's good.
That's why this, you know, this ought to exist.
It's not some, you know, gambly speculative crypto thing.
It's just a better, you know, better fintech product.
Better because it's lower cost to operate and it's plugged into a broader ecosystem that lets you earn, you know, earn rewards.
And staking was the first product in that line.
Staking was the yield layer of the Neobank.
The Liquid Vaults was the...
You could think of them as DeFi investment or DeFi asset deployment, non-custodial asset management.
And then cash was the spending and borrowing layer.
So pulling it all together, you know, that was the dream to be able to, like, wrap these things into a nice integrated experience that gives people, you know, some better alternative to the traditional banking.
And we're seeing, you know, a ton of adoption of that, especially in a lot of emerging markets where.
You know, where Americans tend to be spoiled with a very wide variety of, you know, pretty decent banking and neobanking options.
In many parts of the world, they just don't have that.
And EtherFi serves as that for them.
Yeah, so this is something that stood out to me.
The UX for all these products is really improved and seamless and smooth.
And I think that that's been a big problem that Web3 has had.
Can you talk to me about the focus on making these products?
Not only like...
more advantaged in terms of the yield and the benefits you get, but accessible and you can use the cash card anywhere you would use the Visa card.
Talk to me about that UX design and how you guys have prioritized that at EtherFi.
For sure.
Yeah.
I mean, in many ways, look, our UX in many ways is not that great, if I'm being very honest.
There's a lot that can be better.
It's good in comparison to crypto, typical crypto products.
But compared to, you know, what you'd get with like a Robinhood.
I mean, there's a lot that we could be doing better.
I mean, it's still pretty challenging to fund, to move assets into the product.
There's still a lot of sort of crypto nonsense sort of sprinkled in that may be a little bit confusing and scary for users.
So I guess it really just comes down to raising the bar for crypto.
And I mean, this is why exchanges, this is why centralized exchanges have been pretty successful because they, You know, they focused on normal everyday users pretty much from day one.
And so the result has been that they've had to build like these really nice polished experiences.
But in some ways, many ways, I think they undermine really what crypto was originally supposed to be, which is self-custodial kind of hard money.
But, you know, they've created these really polished consumer products.
And if we want DeFi to go mainstream and...
self-custody to become a common thing that people look at, then, yeah, as I said, the bar needs to be raised.
It just needs to be a lot better than it is today.
Where are you seeing the most demand for these products, like the cash card?
Is it like a certain user segment?
Is it a part of the world?
Or where are you seeing the most adoption and traction happen with this?
Yeah, where we see a lot of users today, where we have a lot of users today, is in countries like Brazil and other Latin American.
countries.
We see a lot of usage in Southeast Asia.
So Thailand, see a lot across the Middle East, like UAE.
We see a decent number of users in Europe.
Those are kind of the broad strokes.
You can almost say everywhere except North America, not really seeing a lot in Africa.
What's the strategy to drive growth there?
Like, is there a specific kind of user that you're targeting and trying to onboard?
Or like, how do you think about like growing Etherfy and bringing on new users?
So a lot of it has been organic.
A lot of it is just people, you know, word of mouth referring each other.
It's been, you know, online personalities, influencers.
So a lot of times without us, you know, talking to them.
at all.
I've just talked about the product because it's good and they enjoy it.
So yeah, that's really been a lot of the growth.
We have not done almost any proactive marketing.
It's all just been word of mouth and organic, plus our own social media messaging.
We're in the process of working on licensing in a few different regions.
As we do that, we'll start getting a lot more deliberate on the marketing side.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So we talked about some of the gaps that you want to see closed, like some of this UX things and improvements there.
But what are some of the durable long-term advantages that you think that Etherify has over some of these incumbents and legacy players?
And how do you see that being a strategic advantage in the market for Etherify?
So, I mean, the two things, the two straightforward things are we have a lower cost structure.
So if Etherify was a traditional FinTech institution with the number of deposits and usage that we have, we'd likely have 500 employees or so, if you just look at comparables.
Whereas Etherify today has about 40 employees.
So it's just a much lower cost structure.
It just allows us to operate much cheaper than other comparable institutions.
And those savings get passed on to users.
When you figure out a way to make something 10 times cheaper, It just allows you to have a product that's better.
The second thing is the rewards are higher because it's plugged into DeFi.
And you could think of it as a lot of tooling that's traditionally only available to institutions like low cost borrowing and access to money markets, other yield opportunities.
Those typically are just not accessible to average people.
They are typically accessible to high net worth individuals, but DeFi kind of democratizes access to that.
So what that means is you just get higher rewards.
You get higher rates of return on your, you know, historically would have gotten higher rates of return on your assets.
And there's a lot more flexibility.
There's a lot more that you can do when you have a self-custodial product.
So those are, I mean, those are like three pretty basic things.
It's cheaper.
You get more out of it and it gives you more flexibility.
Gotcha.
Okay.
I think like, The question I have just generally, right, like as somebody who is like deep into crypto and uses crypto and hears about all these different products, I'd like to hear your pitch in terms of what differentiates Etherfy.
Like if I have Ethereum and I'm looking for a place to deploy it, right?
you know, versus hodling it just or staking it myself or running my own node or all these other things.
What differentiates Etherfy from other things that are already out there on the market and why Etherfy?
Well, so if you're talking about ETH specifically, we tend to have the highest staking rewards over whatever period you want.
We tend to have the highest staking rewards.
So if you care about that, you probably want to look at Etherfy.
And then it lets you use your ETH.
So you can borrow against it.
You can just hold it.
You can deploy it using some of our...
or liquid vaults and earn even more DeFi rewards on those.
So that's on the ETH side, but to use EtherFi, the sort of the broader DeFi bank, you can use stable coins, you can use Bitcoin, you can actually use any number of assets.
So you can use dollars, you can deposit fiat from your bank account into EtherFi and then spend on your card, get 3% cash back, you can earn.
These days it's 5% or 6% on your stablecoins with our earn vaults.
So that's the magic of it is you can just use any assets and earn better rewards than you would from your bank.
Your bank's definitely not paying you 6%.
No, they definitely are not.
Yeah, I think that's an important point.
It doesn't have to be Ether denominated there.
You guys can work with any asset that somebody wants to bring in.
Mike, I want to talk a little bit about the future looking strategy here.
And, you know, and early in the conversation, you said that, you know, you're kind of winding down the restaking thing, but you said that you think it's too early, not that it's, you know, like a bad idea or something.
And I'm curious if you see restaking coming back into Etherify's strategy at some point and what that might look like when that time comes.
Sure.
I'm open to it.
I mean, again, really hard to say what the future looks like.
But if there are opportunities, if there's products out there, product market fit, then yeah, I mean, of course, we'll continue to look at it.
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Okay, cool.
Looking down the road, you've got Liquid, you've got Cash, you've got Stake.
Those are the three products of the DeFi bank that you guys have built.
Are there any other things on the roadmap that you want to talk about?
I know you guys got a call in August about some things, plans for the rest of 2026, but just generally, where do you see the progression of the growth of this DeFi bank and what's on the roadmap that you're excited about?
Yeah, what I'm excited about is just that you can do things and you will be able to do things that are just not, You can say that what you can do currently with EtherPi are versions of things that you could do in a tri-fi institution.
Like, okay, we have a credit card.
Okay, you can get a credit card.
We have cash back.
Other people have cash back.
So, okay, the quantity of rewards is different, but it's sort of fundamentally similar.
You can hold your assets in EtherPi.
You can hold your assets in a bank.
So all of those things are kind of...
you know, better versions of things that exist.
I'm excited about doing things that you just, you cannot do in TradFi institutions.
And some of that is going to, is part of some of the announcements that we're going to be making in EtherFi summer.
We're just going to be launching these really exciting things that are, you know, the first iterations of things that you just cannot do in, you know, in TradFi.
One of the things that you may have noticed is, as just a give sort of a hint and a preview of that is you may have noticed some Aave AIPs coming out to where they're going to be launching or we are going to be launching in collaboration with Aave, a dedicated Aave v4 market for Etherfy.
And so, you know, maybe you can use your imagination what that might be used for.
But there are a lot of things that are going to be pretty exciting with that.
Mike, just so everybody is on the same page, what is Etherify Summer and when is that happening?
Yeah, so it's happening August 13th.
I mean, it's just a big release.
There's a number of things that we're going to be announcing, not just product related.
But we're going to be sort of packaging these things up into kind of like probably either quarterly or maybe biannual kind of big releases.
and EtherPriate Summer is one of the first of these, where it's just sort of a package of really cool product things that we're shipping.
Okay, cool.
Yeah, and I just wanted to make sure people know that that's coming to be on the lookout for that when that arrives.
Mike, I think that there are a lot of questions I had prepared and wanted to ask you about EtherFi Summer.
But because that's still on the horizon, I won't press you too much on that.
But I am curious to hear, though, like, you know, we talked about this, like talking about your view on we started the conversation talking about your view on DeFi overall.
And I am curious about like your vision for like what you think the trajectory looks like from here.
We are getting a regulatory environment that's much more friendly to digital.
assets in the United States and clarity from the SEC and the CFTC and maybe the Clarity Act.
But like from here, you know, you said you want to see a DeFi offer products that the traditional system can't.
Talk to me a little bit more about what that looks like and what that world becomes as we see these things start to continue to evolve and new products come to market.
Yeah.
So, I mean, the regulatory framework, I guess there's a.
50% chance the Clarity Act passes.
That's as good a guess as anyone's.
But look, things are at least moving in the right direction.
We have, I guess, what, two more years of crypto-friendly administration.
And after that, I mean, we'll see how much work can get done so that things are sort of locked in place.
After that, I mean, who knows, maybe they clamp down again.
Or maybe crypto is now, you know, enough of a lobby group where it's just whatever party's in power, you know, has to provide some value, I guess, to the ecosystem.
But look, I mean, it's a good thing.
I think at least the really aggressive and bad faith enforcement actions have stopped.
I mean, that's a huge positive thing.
People at least are free to experiment now.
And I think that's been mostly a good thing.
Interestingly, like we're seeing less, we're seeing fewer blowups and scams than I think we were seeing during the time when there was very aggressive and punitive enforcement.
Because in a sense, when you have that kind of aggressive and bad faith enforcement, you know, the only people willing to really work in the space were the scammers, right?
Because of the way they didn't.
They didn't care about that.
They were offshore.
They were hidden.
And so it just led to this proliferation of scams, you know, whether it was bad exchanges, centralized entities or bad DeFi protocols.
Whereas today, I mean, it's actually much more dominated by, I think, well-meaning players like us, like a lot of the RWA and real-world asset providers.
Like the market seems to be much more about those kinds of...
real things that provide actual value rather than just the speculative, you know, gambling stuff.
So anyway, so these are all positive.
I mean, I don't have any crystal ball in terms of where things are going to go, but I'm optimistic that at least, you know, things are in a better state and will continue to improve.
Okay, well, when you find a crystal ball that predicts the future of crypto, please let me know because I'd love to talk to you about it.
Mike, I do want to ask a question here.
You said that Etherfy has mostly grown through word of mouth, through referrals from users who really love the product.
And I feel like a problem that a lot of the players in the digital asset industry have had is sort of cutting through the noise and getting the marketing and the messaging out there about what they're building.
There's a lot of, you know...
hostile players telling, you know, talking about scams and other things that like kind of make the dominant branding for the industry overall.
But like, does Etherify have a strategy to try to like get that word out there more and do some more marketing and like let people know more about what they're building and sort of get the word out, so to speak?
Yeah, we're working on it.
I mean, we have a marketing team of one right now.
Yeah, we're working on investing.
more into that.
I guess I'll preview a little bit that as part of Etherfy Summer, there's going to be a bit of a brand refresh.
Not a complete rebrand, like we're not changing the name or anything, but just a bit of a refresh.
It's going to be a lot more friendly and it's part of an evolution, I would say.
If you looked at Etherfy, let's say a year ago or a year and a half ago, it would have been like hardcore DeFi, totally impenetrable too.
you know, a normal person.
Whereas today, I think a person going to our site and downloading our app, you know, you can tell it's crypto, it still looks a little bit maybe intimidating or confusing, but, but at least you kind of get a sense like, okay, this is some sort of banking, you know, fintech like thing.
So this is along that continuum where it's, it's going to be much closer to a normie-friendly product while still being plugged into stablecoin banking.
Anyway, I guess that's part of the Etherprice summer refresh.
Is there anything else you want to tell me about this collaboration with Aave that you alluded to or more details you want to give me on that, the previews, what's coming?
I think I've said as much as I can.
Look, it's a dedicated Aave lending market.
for Etherify users.
As you can imagine, I mean, you probably do a lot of things with that.
So yes, I think it's gonna be really cool.
Okay, Mike, well, I won't push you for any more details on these things, but I am really looking forward to those announcements in August.
I think there's going to be a lot of cool things coming out of your product and the ecosystem overall, and I'm just excited for these innovations.
Mike, I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing a lot of what you're building with our audience, because in a bear market, it's always exciting to see who's building and what they're building.
So thank you so much for being here and for sharing with us.
Where can we send people to find more of you and your work online?
Just go to ether.5 and try out the product.
Tell me what you think.
That's simple enough.
Mike, thanks so much for being on The Milcro Show.
Great.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Thank you all for joining us.
I'm glad you all were here for this today.
Thank you so much for being here.
Until next time, stay safe, stay educated, stay bullish, and we will see you all on the next episode of The Milcro Show.
Bye.
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Nothing we say is financial advice.
Investing is risky.
Never invest more than you can afford to lose.