# Spin Master Strategies: Innovation, Scaling, And Founder Balance

**Podcast:** How I Built This with Guy Raz
**Published:** 2026-07-02

## Transcript

Before we get into the episode, thanks to our presenting sponsor, Anthropic.
They make Claude an AI built for the problems that take real thinking, research, strategy, planning, and making sense of a lot of moving pieces.
Give it a try for the next thing you can't quite stop turning over in your head.
For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai.hibt.
Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you.
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1-800-433-1298.
Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master, which started out as a toy company back in 1994 and has since gone on to become a multinational, multimedia entertainment empire.
Spin Master is the company behind the mega hit franchise Paw Patrol, as well as Air Hogs, Bakugan, and so many more toys, including Rubik's Cubes now.
Ronan, it's so great to have you back on the show.
Great to be here, Guy.
Thanks for having me on.
So you were first on the show back in 2021 when, of course, you told me the story of Spin Master, which we will put a link to in the show notes.
And I know I always say this, but it is a phenomenal episode.
You've got to listen to this one.
Thank you.
Renan, before we get to our callers, I'd just love to get an update from you since you were last on.
You were, at that time, I think you'd recently transitioned from being co-CEO of Spin Master, which you've done for like 25 years.
to becoming chairman of the board.
So what is your involvement with Spin Master these days?
You know, I'd say I've spent about 30% of my time in the business.
So managing the board and the board of directors and working on special projects.
One of the special projects I worked on was getting our worldwide AI studio going.
So we built that up.
So I've been busy doing that.
I just finished writing a book.
So I gotta tell you, it's one thing to write a book.
It's another thing to sell a book.
It's like starting a business.
So I almost feel like I'm back in startup mode again, which is kind of nice.
Tell me about the book, Full Disclosure.
I've read the manuscript.
It's not a traditional memoir.
It's sort of a how-to guide, but directed toward a very specific audience.
Tell us about it.
It's called No Experience Necessary.
Why betting on yourself in your 20s is the best decision you'll ever make.
And it's really a manifesto based on my lived experience about why I think that your 20s is the best time to start a business if you're so inclined to.
And I write about certain things that in your 20s that accrue to you, things like everybody's rooting for you, the power of not knowing.
And then I try to help people reframe their thoughts around risk and luck and equity and control so that all the benefits from that time can accrue to them.
Yeah, it's a great message.
And again, not to say that if you're beyond your 20s, this won't have relevance, but.
I think the key argument of the book is a lot of young people, they sort of they feel like they don't have any advantages, right?
Because they're young.
They don't they're not taken seriously.
They see older people succeeding and doing all these things.
But in actual fact, when you're in your 20s, you've got this insatiable hunger and energy and and you can learn very quickly.
You can learn new things very quickly or exposed to things that people in their 50s aren't exposed to.
So there are massive advantages to being young and starting something young.
Yeah, no, exactly.
It's all about the ability to start and being brave enough to take that step.
And then all the things that will come your way once you've actually started on that journey.
And you can't map that out till you actually start.
Awesome.
Well, congrats on that.
I'm sure it's a relief to have that out in the world.
I want to switch gears for a second, because I remember when you were on the show, one of the things we talked about was how fickle the toy business is because you're dealing with kids.
You know, they like something for a few months and then they move on.
And the key is trying to come up with a multi-generational brand, which is.
like the Holy Grail, really hard.
You guys tried to do it and finally you did succeed with Paw Patrol.
A lot of the things that you guys built were innovated inside Spin Master.
You created these ideas inside of the company.
But over time, as you've grown, you've acquired some legacy brands, Etch-A-Sketch, Rubik's Cube, Melissa & Doug, a brand we actually did on the show many, many years ago.
We had Melissa & Doug on the show.
So when you think about...
company like Spin Master, what's the balance between acquiring existing brands and really innovating from inside, coming up with the ideas from within?
I would say you want at least a 50-50 balance.
One of the things we did was we took a lot of the earnings that we made from Paw Patrol and we bought Melissa and Doug.
And the reason for that was to have, to even out the ups and downs of the toy industry.
And Melissa and Doug is a very stable, you know.
open-ended play traditional toy line.
Yeah, right.
It's like wooden kitchens and, yeah.
Kitchens and ice cream makers.
That gives us a stable, reoccurring revenue and an incredible brand of which to innovate around.
And I think that's the thing that you want in the toy industry is you want those timeless brands that have high awareness among consumers, and then you want to infuse it with innovation.
And that's always been our model.
And I would say that we probably over-rotated in the last few years since I...
I like to say, stepped up from being CEO of the company or co-CEO, where we became too rigid.
And so our culture was actually starting to shift, which wasn't a good thing for us.
And now we've leaned heavily back into innovation, ideation, and then stuff that I was talking about at the beginning.
What can we do around AI to make sure that we're staying current?
Because I would say that the rate of innovation is very high now and the barriers to entry for people to enter into.
the toy business or children's entertainment has gone down a lot.
So we have to be very, very quick as a company.
Yeah, you've got to be right on top of these things because, I mean, it's basically a business around building hits.
Yeah, and keeping things going.
Like, for example, with Paw Patrol, we have our third movie coming out this August.
You know, we bring out a new season every year.
And within the season, there's specials and there's new characters.
And then with the toy line, we make sure that we keep the toy line super innovative.
So we're constantly refreshing everything within the franchise.
Our goal is Paw Forever.
We started with Paw for 5, Paw for 10, and now we're Paw Forever.
We're going into, I think, our 14th or 15th season.
And we're keeping stuff fresh.
All right, Ronan, what do you say?
Should we take our first caller?
Yeah, let's do it.
That'd be great.
Okay, let's bring in our first caller.
Welcome to the advice line.
You're on with Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business, please.
Hi, guys.
I am Anne Williams.
I'm calling from Nashville, Tennessee.
I have a business called Yearly Co., which is a fine jewelry brand, and we specialize in solid 14-karat gold bangles.
And these are based on a tradition that was started by my grandparents.
So my grandfather gave my grandmother a gold bangle every year of marriage.
Wow, awesome.
Well, thanks for calling in.
It's your Nashville.
And tell me, so you sell gold bangles.
bracelets and is that your main product?
Yes.
So bangles that are custom sized, which is kind of really our differentiator.
We really say it's to tell your story.
So could be one for every year of marriage.
It could be to celebrate health journey, a promotion, you know, really whatever speaks to you about your jewelry.
But we do probably about 80% of our sales are bangles.
And then we have expanded to other just everyday pieces like earrings, bracelets, necklaces.
And everything tends to be, everything is solid 14 karat gold, natural diamonds.
But we really focus on that wearability factor.
We want those special pieces to kind of become a part of everyday life.
When did you start the business?
I started it in 2016.
It's about 10 years we're about to celebrate.
Congrats.
And how did it come about?
Were you in the business before?
So no, I had no business being in the jewelry business.
I was a stay-at-home mom at the time.
I had started some other businesses, always had an entrepreneurial spirit.
And this is our family tradition.
So I decided that I could take a metalsmithing class and learn how to make a bangle in my garage.
Didn't think it was that hard.
It's harder than it looks.
And then just kind of naturally had this customer base of my family.
So started selling them out of my garage, truly just working during nap times, listened to a lot of how I built this in that garage and really had no plans to like start this huge business.
But the marketing, the pieces, the fact that you come back every year for another bangle, it just kind of grew from there.
Awesome.
Tell me a little bit about how the business is doing.
Yes, so I'm very proud to say we did about $11 million in sales last year.
So we have grown rapidly and then kind of hit like a stabilization period, I'd say, over the last couple of years.
Wow, congrats.
Okay.
Thank you.
Before we dive in a little bit further, what's your question for us?
Yes.
So my question, if you've seen the news, cold prices have surged to historic highs in the last 12 to 18 months.
So although our order value is up, we've definitely seen a decrease in our order volume.
So I'm just really trying to figure out how we adapt, you know, whether it's through product pricing or marketing, how we continue to serve that customer that I've been serving for 10 years when our material price has just so drastically changed, especially in a short period of time.
Yeah, of course.
All right, Ronan, I want to bring you in.
You guys also face some challenges with things like tariffs.
So you're not, you know, this is not unusual, right?
This is going to create some challenges.
Thoughts, questions, ideas for Ann?
Yeah.
So first of all, I just want to share that my late grandmother used to wear bangles.
Okay.
So I just want to say that when I'm looking at your website, it just reminded me of my late grandmother.
That's sweet.
I love that.
And so from a business perspective, I guess what comes to mind for me is like, first of all, your geography, if you can share with us, you know, where do you sell your products?
Is it just in the United States?
How are your gross margins?
And what are your thoughts around other materials?
And because right now you just do everything with gold, but you don't do anything with other materials.
That's right.
So solid 14 karat gold has kind of always been a big part of our story.
It's what the bangles were originally made in.
It's kind of a material we trust.
We pitched our customers because you can wear it for a lifetime.
We do about 80% of our sales online, about 20% in person.
So we have a retail showroom in Nashville.
We do trunk shows across the country as well.
And we have seen like higher AOVs, obviously in person when you're buying, we tend to see that.
And our margin, you know, has been interesting because we have had to change things so rapidly.
So we do very clear price increases with our customers when the gold market has these bumps.
So over, you know, 2020 to 2024, it was like, oh, maybe we have to do one.
And then in the past two years, I think we've done four price increases.
And we do give our customers a heads up to order.
Um, but we're, we're about 2.25 to two, two and a half marking up our products.
We're not having to mark them up four times, like the traditional jewelry markup because we're not wholesaling.
Um, so it does give a direct to consumer price.
We're really excited about that always and confident in that, that feels like an integral part of the business, um, because we should, you know, if we were in that traditional markup, be charging.
much more for the products we can sell direct.
Right.
And you've been able to hold your gross margins as the...
We have.
I mean, some of our pieces, you know, we've compromised a little bit.
So I would say our, you know, our cost of goods on some of them, it's like 40 to 45%.
And like our original bangle, which is kind of our bestseller, and it's the piece that we really rely on.
I'm constantly kind of pushing back like, oh man, if we can just push that volume and, you know, keep the price like a little bit more reasonable because we're approaching that $700 price point.
And that's been the hardest part, I think, is that it's shocking to a customer to be like, wait, 12 months ago, you told me this was, you know, $440.
And now it's 640.
We don't really do a lot of sales discounts, things like that.
So I would say that generally, we're holding those margins pretty strong.
We have repeat customers who understand the price of gold, but we've definitely lost this margin of $300 to $500 price point customer.
Are there, I mean, obviously you don't want to compromise on the gold and the craftsmanship and the sizing and all that stuff, right?
But you mentioned that your existing repeat customers understand, right?
They know that the price of gold goes up and they understand that.
And so you're not going to, I'm assuming you're not going to get into like gold plated lines, right?
Or like lower quality materials.
I don't know.
Maybe, I don't know.
I mean, it's crossed my mind for sure.
My concern is that part of, I think, what makes us so special, you know, a gold bangle is not, we did not invent it.
They're sold by so many retailers.
I think our custom sizing and our guarantee that these pieces are solid gold is kind of what sets us apart.
Yeah.
We're in an interesting part of the jewelry market.
We're not Tiffany, nor do I ever plan to be, but now our price points are getting higher.
We're doing this, you know, less volume.
And that feels great in some ways.
But there's just that part of you that wants to, like, continue to provide that product to everybody.
You know, there's certain things we can't control.
Commodities, we just can't control it.
But what I would recommend to you is you have so many incredible things going for you.
You have this incredible direct-to-consumer relationship.
You don't have to go through retail.
So you can keep your prices in check, which is so wonderful.
Your name doesn't have the word gold in your brand.
So I think you have the permission.
from your consumer base to do other things that are not necessarily gold and really lean into the creativity of what else that could be.
And the price may come down.
You know, gold has had a reputation of coming down.
It's a commodity.
So we don't know.
But it looks like, from what I see, you have the permission to do other things that aren't necessarily gold in the jewelry space that people would really care for.
And I would lean into that while the price remains high.
You know, that's an interesting idea because I initially was thinking you don't want to have gold plated stuff.
But, you know, actually now that I and I still think that, but looking at your website, you know, like what else could you what other materials could you use?
And I think maybe maybe keeping the designs, but you're offering different metals in that design.
I mean, that could be interesting to see what that does, because I don't think that's going to affect the qualitative sort of feel of.
of your product line yeah i think uh fine silver is kind of another alternative that we've had people ask about before we do white gold which is um kind of gives the look but it's still 14 karat yeah but there are things that i consider and um yeah that we would be able to offer at a lower price point obviously and even in our concept yearly co of you know pieces like silver baby cups or, you know, special frames, things that you're going to go to year after year, these special milestones in your life.
I think there's an opportunity there to expand and help our customers, like meet them at the place they are on those special occasions, because we already have that trust and that brand loyalty.
You have a strong base of customers.
So the question is, what else can you sell those customers?
And I would turn lemons into lemonade with this situation where it's like, what brand new product line could you guys bring into the world?
that's different to what you're doing now that can really expand your revenue base.
And so it's not necessarily just rethinking the materials within the existing product line, but it's really bringing forth a whole brand new product line that's made of other materials that maybe could be a little bit more contemporary or can serve a slightly different market.
Or, you know, you're selling fashion at the end of the day.
So it's like, you know, what else can people, do they want to wear for different occasions that you can provide to them?
Yeah, awesome.
Ann Williams, the brand is called Yearly Co.
Good luck.
Thanks for calling in.
Thank you for having me.
Appreciate it.
Yeah, thank you.
Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level.
That's after the break.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic.
the team behind Claude.
I've been using Claude when I'm prepping for interviews, and it's become one of those tools that helps me get out of the messy middle faster.
I can be looking at a founder's timeline, trying to understand what happened when, which early decisions mattered, what the real turning points were, and where the story actually starts.
And instead of just...
giving me a quick summary.
Claude helps me work through the material and find the thread, the thing that connects where someone started to where they ended up.
And that's what I love about it.
Claude doesn't just give me answers.
It helps me think through the problem and organize what I already know and get to better questions.
Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough.
It's the collaborator that...
actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you.
Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter.
And now with Co-Work, you can use Claude to help with the operational work that piles up too.
Point it at a folder on your computer or connect tools like Google Drive, Gmail, and Slack.
Describe what you need and it can help organize files, Build spreadsheets, draft reports from scattered notes, and queue up tasks so you can come back to finished work.
So whether you're in deep research, prepping for a conversation, thinking through strategy, or just trying to hand off the busy work that slows everything down, Claude helps you keep moving.
For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai.hibt.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master, and let's bring in our next caller.
Hello.
Hey, Guy.
Hi, Ronan.
I'm Felix Colon.
I'm calling from Martha's Vineyard, where my family runs Island Bee Company.
We're an apiary run by three generations of my family, and we produce raw honey, but our most popular product is Hive 5.
which is a moisturizer made with five ingredients, all straight from the hive.
Wow, thanks for calling in, Felix.
So this is a family-run, family-owned bee company.
You make honey and skincare products and sell them mainly on Martha's Vineyard?
Yeah, so predominantly on Martha's Vineyard through farmer's markets and local stores.
We also recently started selling online, but that's only been in the past.
three to four years.
Great.
Okay.
So this was started by your parents, you said?
Yeah.
So it was started by my parents in 1999.
I work for the business part-time right now.
My goal is to take it over and to grow it into something meaningful.
I have been seeing this business throughout my childhood, and I've always been thinking of new things to do on this side and that side.
And I think that I've wanted to start a company and then I look.
And right there before my eyes is one that's small with a lot of potential.
And I think that it feels right.
What are your best sellers?
Yeah, so the best sellers are honey, of course.
The worry there is that it's not a very scalable product.
You know, it's heavy, hard to ship, and our production capacity is limited.
Our most popular product is Hive 5, which is a skin moisturizer with five ingredients from the hive.
Raw honey, beeswax, propolis, pollen, and royal jelly.
which is a proprietary formula that my mom created and it is patented.
And that's our best-selling product right now.
And we also sell candles and other kind of gift-oriented things, but the skincare product is kind of our bestseller there.
Cool.
All right.
Lots of potential here.
What's your question for us?
Yeah.
So for 27 years, the business has stayed very small and local.
I'm ready to grow it.
My question is, If in our position, I guess I'm considering focusing on, you know, a more relationship driven business to business channels like corporate gifting or weddings with bigger order sizes or to kind of go aggressively after more of a direct consumer route like TikTok shop trying to reach consumers directly.
All right.
I want to bring in Ronan.
Ronan Island B Company trying to figure out.
What kind of channels to go with to begin to scale this business?
Thoughts, ideas, questions?
Well, first of all, Felix, nice to meet you.
And looking at your products online, they look amazing.
And what an incredible opportunity for you to, you know, carry your parents' business forward.
I come from consumer products, so this is very close to what I do.
So when I heard you at the beginning and you said, you know, honey, you can't scale honey and it's not scalable type stuff, I don't necessarily agree with that.
I think everything's scalable.
The question is, how are you going to go about doing it?
There's so many people that are starting brands from scratch, and it's based on their own personal story.
And it's based on them doing innovative marketing.
I'm looking at your Instagram, and all the things on your Instagram didn't match up with your beautiful branding of your product.
Like, there was very much a disconnect there.
So, for me, I'd be working on social media.
the storytelling, amplification of the brand.
You know, TikTok shop is great.
It's a great place to go.
It's only increasing.
But the question is, like, how do you tell that story?
And how do you tell that story in a way that's going to resonate with the consumers?
So I'll pass it back to you.
Where are you on that journey?
And what do you want this business to be?
Yeah, of course.
I mean, something that kind of kicked me on this journey eventually was actually listening to the episode with Roxanne Quimby at Burt's Bees.
And that really inspired me to kind of see things on a bit of a bigger scale.
But also, I think that we have an opportunity, you know, being an apiary on Martha's Vineyard to kind of play up the more premium aspects of the business.
Like, for instance, Tate's Cookies.
I think that's one of the companies that I'd like to emulate a little bit.
Founded in like a...
East Coast kind of summer hamlet area and kind of trying to tie that premium aspect into the brand as well.
You know, I think you've got a lot going for you, as you say, with Martha's Vineyard, right?
Because Martha's Vineyard evokes premium.
It evokes the summer quality, artisanal.
I have a slightly different take on TikTok than Ronan.
I agree that you want to really use those channels to build your story, but I wouldn't actually push selling this on Instagram right away only because in Ronan, you may have a different view.
If something hits on Instagram, that can create operational chaos.
Just let's just say, I mean, it'd be an amazing problem to have, but a huge problem to have.
What's your annual revenue right now?
Between 150 and 200,000.
Okay, so 150, 200, you're still small.
And if all of a sudden you're getting endless orders, it's going to be really hard for you to handle that kind of chaos.
I mean, I think you have an opportunity right now to look at things like B2B, right?
I mean, you've got a really special...
clientele coming to Martha's Vineyard.
Those are the people who are going to see your product.
And this is what happened with Sunbomb.
Sunbomb was selling in small boutiques in Hawaii.
And that's how it exploded over time because you had high, you know, sort of affluent customers coming, buying this and then seeing it and then wanting it to be on the mainland.
I think that you have an opportunity for sure to try and build out a B2B business initially.
Corporate, like corporate gifting, luxury hotels, partnerships with other artisanal.
brands on Martha's Vineyard, the best known, I think, is Black Dog, probably, maybe weddings, a lot of weddings on Martha's Vineyard.
I mean, I would really start there and test that out and really get your ducks in a row before you go all in on, you know, social media.
Again, it would be great, but it could also create problems.
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
And I think, you know, that's something that me and my parents were scared of if kind of something did come to pass where a video did.
blow up, you know, it's, it still is produced by my mom, myself and my father.
So it would be operational chaos.
I completely understand that.
And building the foundation there with the corporate gifting and weddings could be an easier way to figure out how to scale operationally before going to those other channels.
Yeah.
Ronan, any thoughts?
I respectively disagree with my host.
Great.
Excellent.
I love that.
I respectfully disagree with him.
I think that, first of all, it's very hard to just, you know, blow up on Instagram.
Like today, you have to be super unique, super different.
You have to do a lot of work to make that happen.
But I just think that's where the eyeballs are.
And you compared yourself to Burt Bees at the beginning.
That's a big company.
So the question is, like, what do you want to aspire to be?
You know, if you want to build a $5 million business, then you can take guys' path.
But if you want to build a business that's...
$20 million, $30 million, $50 million, $100 million.
I think you've got to take a different path.
I'm not a big fan of the whole corporate gifting side of things because it's very, it's transactional.
You have it one year, it doesn't stay the next year.
It comes and goes almost like the service business.
But you have a consumer product.
So the question is like, do people love the consumer product and will they buy it and will they repeat the purchases?
That's the most important thing is consumer products is repeating the purchase.
And so you want to be in a place where people can actually buy it on a regular basis.
So if you want it to go slower to Guy's point, maybe take a bit of a different path and start to get distributors and go to the gift shows and go to the food shows and start to get your product in retail and build it out slowly and then see whether or not you have the POS, the point of sale to support.
your products.
Maybe you start with Mercer de Vinnard and you go outwards across the East Coast, right?
And then you go across the country.
But I would just build it chunk by chunk, distributor by distributor, retail shop by retail shop.
And while you're doing that, I would be building your social media story on a very consistent basis so that you can have that opportunity to blow up and fill the orders if that's what you want to become.
So maybe I'll pass it back to you.
What's your dream?
What do you want this to be for yourself?
in five or 10 years from now.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not a business that I'm looking to sell or, you know, I want it to continue to be a family business.
And I think that long-term thinking is very important to me.
And I think it's been important to the business as a whole.
So I think that scaling at like a sustainable pace that doesn't create fractions between my parents and I, but also doesn't.
Because I think that happens a lot with consumer brands where they grow too fast to support themselves and then it kind of crashes.
So I want to avoid that at all costs.
I would avoid you to have that type of thinking.
Because I think you can scale as much as you want to scale if that's what you want to do.
The question is if you want to do it.
Right.
So I wouldn't put it out there as in like that will be, you know, the limiter and the thing that I'm that I'm nervous of happening.
Yes.
Yeah.
I got to say, I like Ronan's advice.
I still think it's slow and steady, but I do agree.
I mean, trade shows, I mean, you're going to have to really kind of hit the ground running.
Looking at a brand like Burt's Bees and sort of figuring out what your path in is, is a really smart way to go about it.
But there's a lot of there's a lot of legwork you need to do and a lot of storytelling you need to do.
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.
Well, thank you both.
I really appreciate the advice.
There's so many ideas, but it gives me a lot to think about and consider.
Awesome.
Well, good luck, Felix.
The brand is called Island B Company.
Let us know how it goes.
So excited for you.
Enjoy the journey.
Thank you, guys.
All right, we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master.
And Ronan, are you ready for our next call?
Yeah, that'd be great.
All right, let's bring in our next caller.
Welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with Ronan Harari, founder of Spin Master.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Sure.
My name is Matt Smith.
I'm calling from Beverly, Massachusetts, and I own Wandering Soul Beer, which is a craft beer project, as well as Hidden Path Brew, which is a non-alcoholic beverage brand.
Awesome.
Tell us a little bit about it.
Sure.
So, you know, I've been in the beer industry for about 15 years or so, working for some other breweries and did a lot of home brewing and went through a...
Personal life thing in 2017, actually.
My wife was full term in her pregnancy, and there were complications, and our first daughter was stillborn.
Her name was Melody, and after that happened, I had to really stop everything I was doing.
It was a formative time for me, and I had been working on a recipe for a beer, 5% New England-style hazy pale ale.
sessionable, drinkable beer.
And I wanted to release that beer out into the world and call it Melody Maker.
And with the connections I had, we sold the first batch and the stores all sold out.
And we did it again and the stores all sold out.
And from that point, it was like, okay, I think there might be something to this.
So that's kind of how it started.
Obviously, very personal.
And it's great to be here, by the way.
I should have led with that.
Yeah, well, thanks for coming on.
Tell me a little bit about the business.
Where do you sell a beer?
You've got a brewery.
Do people go buy it there primarily?
Are they buying it in stores?
Yeah, so I don't have a tap room.
I don't have a place for people to come drink the beer.
It's basically, you know, I'm brewing at several different New England area breweries.
And then when the beer is ready, it goes to the stores and restaurants here in Massachusetts, as well as New Hampshire, Connecticut, New York.
And I was delivering everything myself for about seven years and got to the point where I just signed with a distributor because I just couldn't really manage those deliveries anymore.
And give us a sense of your sales last year.
Yeah, last year, sales were around 150,000.
Really, my best year was COVID.
2020 was my best year.
Did almost half a million in sales.
Everybody was just drinking at home.
But it's fluctuated a lot.
I actually shut the whole thing down at the end of 2022 because I had reached a point with it where I felt like I accomplished what I wanted to.
I had a legacy for my daughter, and there was a lot of healing that occurred.
And I wanted to kind of go out on a good note.
So I ended the whole business, and then it came back the next year when people kept asking me, are you ever going to make beer again?
And I woke up one day and said, if one person asks me that today, I'm going to bring this thing back.
And it came back.
Yeah.
And before we dive in further, what's your question?
Basically, the question is, you know, in a saturated industry, how do I maintain my identity in terms of releasing beers dedicated to concepts and people?
It's beer supposed to be fun and happy.
And you know what I mean?
And, you know, maintaining that identity without having it kind of swallow me whole like it did at the end of 2022.
Got it.
So you're trying to figure out how do you run a business?
But you also have a separate life identity outside of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And especially for something so personal, sort of a grief project.
It's like, where's the separation?
You know what I mean?
Interesting.
Interesting question, Ronan.
I mean, a lot of founders on the show will say that it's everything, right?
Their business is their identity.
You, I mean, you stepped away from your business running it day to day.
So you have experienced going from this being everything you do all the time.
to kind of having one foot in, but also being able to do other things.
So what do you think?
I mean, it's possible to do it, right?
It's possible, but Matt, nice to meet you.
I feel you.
It's very difficult.
I'm just curious, can you share with us just what's your average day like?
Do you bring home the work?
Do you talk about the work?
Do you talk about it with your people around you, your loved ones, your family, your friends?
Are you able to compartmentalize?
Yeah, I think that that's been a challenge, compartmentalizing.
Every day is different.
My days were spent in a van delivering beer most days.
Now that I have a distributor, they're doing a lot of that work.
So mostly it's selling the beer, reaching out to the beer buyers at the different stores and restaurants, hey, we have this new beer, and coming up with the new labels and the recipes, a lot of marketing type work, a lot of social media.
But it really varies.
And are you doing everything from home or do you have an office?
Everything is done here from home.
There's an office in my home, but yeah.
I would say the first thing I would recommend you do is get an office.
It doesn't matter where it is.
It doesn't matter what it looks like, but I wouldn't be working from home because you can't compartmentalize when your business is in your home.
And so there's something very nice about leaving the house, picking up your coffee, meeting people along the way, going to work.
Do you have employees?
Do you have people that are working with you?
No, it's just me.
Okay.
So is there any shared workspace that's close by?
Yeah, there are some places where I could go to do that for sure.
I sometimes go to a coffee shop.
Yeah, I would recommend you go to a shared workspace where people are working and that's what they're doing and they're in the business mode.
And I think you'll get a lot of benefits from that in terms of like relationships, connections, understanding what other people are doing, staying current.
And that's what I do.
I mean, I'm a 10 to 6-er.
Back in the day, I go into the office.
I do all my meetings.
They're back to back.
In like 30 years, I've taken like five lunches.
I eat them at my desk.
I do everything in the office.
But then when I leave the office, I know it's my time at the end of the day.
And the other thing that I do is I don't talk about work.
It's my friends or my family.
I just don't do it.
And it's just like, it's just a strict rule that I have.
I just actually, I actually don't even like doing it.
But I'm very conscious about it and not like letting it bring, bring it into my life.
And then it just creates a lot of space for other things.
And it just lets my mind like take a break at the end of the day.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, listen, this is, this is tough, right?
Because your business is your, for many of us, it's our lives.
This is what I do.
This is my business, built a productions and the show and other things we do.
But I have to say that it takes some – you've got to make some decisions and choices that are not always easy, but you've got to make those decisions and stick with them.
So, for example, there are some non-negotiables, right, that you can build into your life.
You can say every morning or a few times a week, no matter what.
I am going to take a walk from 7 to 8 a.m.
You're in Massachusetts.
It's freezing cold in times of year, but it's still worth doing.
I think in founders I talked to and in my experience, I'm very lucky to have a very tight-knit group of friends that I see regularly more than once a week.
It's not easy.
Not everybody has that.
It takes time, effort.
I mean, even – did you grow up in Beverly in that area?
I grew up in New Jersey.
And with a group of musicians that we all moved here and played in a band for a long time.
We went on tour and recorded albums.
I'm still in the music community.
A lot of my friends are musicians or in the beer industry.
Yeah.
Maybe your musician friends just say, hey, I'd love for us to just jam like twice a month.
Can we just start that?
Let's just like set aside Wednesday night, no matter what, for two hours.
And it just, you want to start.
with something that's consistent, that gives you something outside of your work, because it's critical, it's really important, you know, and it actually makes you better at what you do, I find.
Yeah, no, I really appreciate that.
I think that the times where I've been able to disconnect from this, or those are the times where I kind of come up with some new ideas.
And I do understand what you're saying, Ronan, about not talking about work with.
family and friends, I kind of wonder if it was always like that for you or if you reached a point where you made that a rule.
You know, for me, it came by me naturally because I wasn't, it was so in it during the day that I just was so tired when I got back.
I didn't have any energy for it.
And I really just wanted the diversity in my life.
I just was so curious about other things that I found.
I found it kind of boring to talk about my business, to be quite honest.
I just found it boring.
Yeah.
For sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
I mean, again, I think that it starts with deciding that you're going to protect sometime consistently every single week and take it from there.
Yeah, that's great advice.
I'm definitely trying to do that.
And I think that will allow for enough separation where I'll feel more refreshed coming back.
You sound like an incredible human.
So I don't think it'll be that difficult for you.
I think to just Guy's point, you just got to make the decision.
But you got like, sounds like you have a really rich life.
I'd like to hang out with you.
Same here.
I appreciate that.
Thank you very much.
This has been just great advice from you guys.
It's been hard.
It's bordering on self-help, I know.
Hey, that's what we're here for, Matt.
That's what the show's here for.
So happy to do it.
The brand is called Wondering Soul Beer.
Matt Smith, thanks for calling in, man.
Good luck.
Thank you very much.
Ronan, before I let you go, you've got a lot of advice in this new book, which I think people, especially young people, really get a lot out of.
But if you could go back to you when you were – and this is kind of what the book is about, right?
And say, hey, I know all this stuff because I've been in the business now for 30-plus years.
I want you to know this.
And you go back to yourself and say something like that.
What would you say?
I would say don't take everything so seriously.
Enjoy the journey.
Enjoy the moments.
It goes fast.
And you really want to be in it.
And you don't want to be, you know, really stressed about it.
And even if things take a little longer, give it a little bit more time to breathe.
Like, you'll eventually get there.
But it's more important to actually enjoy the journey.
I remember trips where I'd go to a trade show in Japan and I'd rush to get home.
You know, and now I think about it.
I'm like, why didn't I take an extra two days?
I was ready there.
Just enjoy the journey.
That's what I would say to myself.
Yeah.
I think that's great advice.
I remember being a reporter and I'd be sent somewhere and I would just work, work, work, and then I'd leave and I regret it.
So I totally agree.
It's great advice.
Ronan, thank you so much.
Guy, thank you for having me on.
That was a lot of fun.
I hope I didn't talk too much.
No, not at all.
That's Ronan Harari, co-founder of Spin Master.
And by the way, if you haven't heard Ronan's original How I Built This episode, Got to go back and check it out.
You can find a link to it in the podcast notes section.
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
You'd basically been profitable every single year and you'd been growing every single year.
And then all of a sudden, you're not only unprofitable, you're losing a lot of money.
Were you worried about whether you guys would make it?
I actually, personally myself, I rise in a crisis.
That being said, I mean, the relationship's definitely frayed.
Even among the founders?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Amongst the founders came out, some inefficiencies in business, the way we're organized.
This is why older people have gray hair.
You know, when people say they have gray hair from something, like this was our seminal gray hair event.
Yeah, and you have some gray hair.
I have a lot of gray hair.
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
Please make sure to check out my newsletter.
You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com.
And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them.
And make sure to tell us how to reach you.
You can send us a voice memo at hibtid.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-433.
1298 and leave a message there.
And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well.
This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtin Erablui.
It was edited by John Isabella.
Our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Chris Messini, JC Howard, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening.
to how I built this.
One more mention for our presenting sponsor, Anthropic.
Claude is built for people who like to keep pulling on the thread, the research, the planning, the questions, the follow-through until the work starts to make sense.
So try Claude for the next problem worth solving.