# Marketing Strategy, AI Governance, and CMO Evolution

**Podcast:** Masters of Scale
**Published:** 2026-06-30

## Transcript

Hey folks, Jeff Berman here.
The speaker lineup for Masters of Scale Summit 2026 is coming together.
And I'm thrilled to share some of the absolutely iconic speakers we're going to have.
The incredible Kara Swisher, Danny Meyer, Anjali Sood from Tubi, Cloudflare's Matthew Prince, Adam Grant, our very own Reid Hoffman, and some folks you might be less familiar with, but who, well, they're going to blow your minds.
It's this October 20th to 22nd in San Francisco.
Our theme, our agency now could not be more timely.
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When things go wrong, marketing gets blamed.
But when it's all going well, nobody's talking to us.
It's a real point.
And I'm going to...
Sit with it for a minute.
I often say marketing is like plumbing.
When was the last time, Bob, you went to your house and you were like, ooh, I love my plumbing?
You're not thinking about your plumbing on the day to day.
No, only when the pipes break.
Only when the pipes break.
And you see it all the time now, right?
Your reputation matters as a business.
Yes.
Customers will switch like that from one service to the other because of the trust in the brand, in the business, and the story that is being told by a powerful marketing engine.
That is how you build a house that stands the test of time.
That's Dara Treseder, CMO of Autodesk and a recurring guest on Rapid Response.
Dara and I sat down together at the Cannes Lions Festival in France to break down the buzziest stories and trends in the advertising and marketing world.
From the industry's flip-flop on AI, to the growing pipeline from CMO to CEO, to the trillionaire brand of Elon Musk.
Plus, the hottest and not-so-hot campaigns from the likes of Adidas, Nike, Starbucks, and more.
As always, Dara brings her A-game, quotable, funny, and full of future-forward lessons.
So let's get to it.
I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.
I'm Bob Safian, and I'm here with Dara Treseder, the CMO of Autodesk at Cannes Lions.
Dara, great to be with you.
Thank you so much.
This is our annual thing.
I always love spending time with you here.
Yeah, it's fun.
So what's the vibe this year?
What are you feeling?
Are people...
Are people excited?
Are people anxious?
I think people are really excited, but there's also a lot of anxiety about what's going on.
And I think there is some people are feeling clear.
Some people are feeling like there's a lot of chaos.
So it's a tale of two cities.
It's a tale of two cities.
Is the chaotic feeling like about the world?
Is it about AI and the business?
Like where's the chaos landing?
I would say the chaos is a little bit about the world, but a lot about AI.
I feel like the chaos.
on AI is more rampant than it was last year.
I mean, I feel like the mood, I mean, we've had such a crazy 2026, right?
Things going on in the Middle East and the Knicks winning the championship.
The Knicks winning the championship.
There's good news and bad news.
Like the brand of the Knicks, though, the best thing that could happen for New York.
The best thing.
The best thing.
I think everybody likes an underdog.
Right?
Everybody wants to see the challenger win.
I'm in the Bay Area, West Coast, best coast.
But even I, even I was rooting for the Knicks, okay?
And I was so proud.
The whole story, the resilience, the story of the coach, the story of Jayla.
I mean, just, there's so much inspiration.
And just to say, I knew you.
New Yorkers, y'all are wild.
Yeah, I was a little worried that things were going to get a little...
You did the tech bros run for their money there.
I was worried things were going to get a little too wild at the parade and everything, because it was a madhouse.
It was wild.
But joy was what took over.
Joy, joy.
And we needed joy.
Yes.
We needed joy.
And I actually think it brought joy more than just to New York.
I think it brought joy to America.
You were mentioning that you went to the World Cup with your son.
And since we're here, I wanted to ask you about the World Cup.
Ed, is that part of the conversation you're hearing?
It's part of the conversation.
And I have to tell you, you know, I've been hanging out with some CMOs.
Some are Team Nike.
Uh-huh.
Samartin Adidas.
Yes.
You know, I want to give both brands a lot of credit because how do you enter a conversation in a very cultural relevant way?
I think Adidas approached it from a nostalgia perspective and they really nailed it.
And they created so much meaning.
They focused on the semantics.
They leaned into, I think, the lost art of deep storytelling.
And it really paid off.
And Nike took a different approach, right?
They went a little bit more, let's go 360.
A little zady.
A little zady.
Yeah.
And they captured a lot of attention.
They drove a lot of conversation.
So, you know, both brands did a really great job.
And, you know, in the spirit of heated rivalry at the World Cup, people are taking sides.
So you talk about with ads being like relevant, memorable, and ownable.
Now, both of those ads are definitely memorable and they're relevant.
Yeah.
Are they ownable?
Like, could Adidas have done the Nike ad and Nike have done the Adidas ad?
I actually think that they are ownable.
Adidas did what Adidas does best.
This...
detailed storytelling.
It's like a hallmark of the brand.
And I have had the opportunity to work closely with Adidas when I was CMO at Carbon.
We had a big partnership with Adidas.
I've seen how they think.
And they understand what their customers love and they lean into that.
And even at Canlion, we see them winning two Grand Prix in the same day, right?
See, even that campaign that they did, the Adidas Oasis campaign, it's very similar in terms of style of ownability, which is let us lean into original storytelling.
Let's not try to zag because everybody is zagging, but let's zig and let's do our own thing.
And for Nike?
I think, look, Nike is about marketing at the speed of culture.
That is what they do.
Even look at the Knicks game, the marketing that Nike did at the Knicks game where they were able to take user generated content and they were able to piece together beautiful creative that just really had everybody feeling that New York spirit.
And they did it in real time.
That is Nike at the speed of culture.
I almost think like the brand embodies that if you have a body, you're an athlete, right?
They take that like elite athlete in terms of how they try to move and the speed at which they try to move.
So I think.
The Nike work was very true to their brand.
Yeah, although Adidas got Timothee Chalamet, who's a Knicks fan.
So, you know, they both get to play.
They both got to play, exactly.
And, you know, I love me some Timothee Chalamet.
I'm a Dune fan.
Once the ad started, I was like, okay.
Don't ask me what team I am.
I like both brands, but, you know, if I had to pick, it would be Adidas.
So you talked, last time we talked a bit about a pining with the spine and how important that is and how effective that is.
In the environment of change that we're in right now in 2026, is that harder?
It is risky, but the risk is worth it.
The risk is worth it when what you are opining on is core to your business strategy and you can back it up with your spine.
Because there's so much sameness.
The unfortunate thing about what is happening is AI is raising the floor.
but it is human ingenuity that's going to vault the ceiling.
Yeah.
And there isn't enough emphasis being placed.
on that human ingenuity and human creativity.
But I'm a rigorous optimist.
So I think we are in the golden age for marketers and creatives who have excellent taste, are willing to master these tools, know when to use it, but most importantly, have the discernment to know when not to use it.
And I think when you have that down...
the clarity and the peace comes in the midst of the chaos.
The conversation last year here was about how AI is going to crush all the creativity or people were worried about that.
And this year, it's a little bit more about like, maybe AI shouldn't be applied to the creativity part of the business or the product.
It should be applied to sort of the process a little bit more.
I think so.
You know, when you're using AI, it is operating in two dimensions.
There's the syntax and there's the semantic.
When you're using AI in the syntax, like it can really address processes, helping.
But when you want to focus on meaning and the semantics, that is where you want to make sure that the creative is still in control of the art.
AI is here to serve humanity.
Humanity is not here to serve AI.
And I think the brands that are willing to say that unapologetically, there's trust being built with their...
customer basis.
Is there conversation or how much conversation you're hearing from colleagues and others here about like when you acknowledge that AI has been used in the creation of content of an ad?
Okay, so I was with a bunch of CMOs and CEOs yesterday and the conversation was you have to acknowledge it because if you don't acknowledge it and it gets discovered, your customers feel like you were trying to deceive them.
Everyone will forgive an honest mistake.
No one will forgive deliberate deception.
And so it's so important that you are transparent about when you're using AI.
And by the way, when you have to become transparent, it forces you to put in the right checks and balances that allows you to have the guardrails that minimize your chance of making bad choices, like obvious bad choices.
You are at an organization where you are marketing.
AI as a tool for folks, but people are suspicious in a way, maybe even more than they were last year at this time.
How does that impact how you think about marketing what you're delivering?
One of our core values as a company is to be trusted.
And so when we talk about our AI, we want to make sure that our customers understand what it is, what it isn't, how it got composed.
We actually have these cards called AI transparency cards.
They're like little nutrition cards.
You know when you buy cereal boxes, your label?
We have that.
So you can actually look and say, oh, what went into this product or tool?
What does this AI mean?
How will I use it?
It gives you that information, these AI transparency cards.
And that has been a great way to foster trust with our customers.
I'm not saying we're perfect, right?
Every company we're learning and we're growing, but we are so committed to doing everything we can to be trusted.
Do you personally use AI differently than you did like a year ago?
I do.
I do use it differently.
I would say the biggest thing for me has been understanding that I'm not taking an existing process and just layering AI on top of it.
I'm actually taking a step back and saying, what is the outcome I'm trying to accomplish?
And then how do I redesign the system?
to get me to deliver not just efficiency, but effectiveness of that outcome.
And then how do I integrate humans and machines to do that to the best of my ability?
And that has helped me a tremendous amount.
In fact, I believe that we are in the era of system and design thinking.
And it's not in conflict with creativity.
Actually, designing and creating systems gives you more space to be creative.
It allows you to lean into creativity in a way that...
you couldn't without a clear system.
And I'll say, you know, to be a thought leader, you got to have a thought.
Radical idea.
But it's so important for me.
I never want to originate my idea through AI.
I am not going to become a secondhand thinker.
I am a firsthand thinker.
And that discipline of saying, I'm going to come up with my point of view and my perspective.
Now I might implement AI as I develop it, as I evolve it.
But the original idea and thinking and thought is mine.
There was this sort of fracas in South Korea for Starbucks, right?
They built an ad campaign around a sort of infamous massacre.
And it kind of blew back on them.
And they had to close stores and do a day of training and whatever.
And they sort of semi-blamed it on AI.
Was this like AI leading the charge in a way that it shouldn't?
First of all, I just have to say it was a really unfortunate incident.
For us in America, it would be the equivalent of a campaign almost around 9-11 or something like that.
To me, this wasn't so much an AI problem as it was a system problem.
There were not the right checks and balances.
You have to think through how many people were involved.
in reviewing and approving this that we got to this place.
Because you can't tell me it was just like an agent all the way through.
It's not that we're moving so fast that we're not checking.
There must have been opportunities.
And if we didn't have that, then, well, that's a failure of system design.
And I think it's a lesson to all of us because we are all going in real time.
And sometimes you have to go slow to go fast.
There is not a, it's not velocity versus governance.
It is velocity and governance.
And that is the power of how we win in this AI era.
Because if we just move without that governance, we may move into some places that are uncomfortable.
We might go to places we don't need to go.
You know, there are journeys we don't need to take.
Right.
How much conversation are you seeing around...
AI and search and sort of how that changes where you find people, where you connect with people.
I was having a conversation actually with the 21st Century brand.
They're one of the brand strategy firms and they've come up with a framework that I really love.
I think the way they articulated is brilliant, which is priming and proving.
So you have to actually prime people.
to love what you are about to offer.
You want to prime the audience.
And that's where you're addressing your total addressable market, your serviceable addressable market.
But then also, you need to prove it's not about what you say about you anymore.
That 30-year-old on Reddit who just...
had their little keyboard warrior moment and, you know, wrote a staving review of your brand.
Now, all of a sudden can really shape perception of how you're seen.
Well, and that may, the AI may pull that up as much as, yeah.
So you have to prove it to the LLMs.
So it's a combination of priming people and proving to LLMs.
And the best systems are bringing these two in concert and working together.
And everyone is trying to figure out what do we do?
How do we do it?
How do we do it in B2C?
How do we do it in B2B?
In fact, one of the CMOs was asking me, she said, do you think this is as relevant for us in B2B?
I said, absolutely.
B2B is a much more emotional purchase, emotional investment.
You're spending hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, in some places, billions of dollars on a technology investment.
You want to be sure that that is happening.
And I can't tell you the amount of use cases now about.
purchases that began with the CEO, CIO, CTO, CMO doing an LLM search.
You know, they're just having coffee on the plane.
They pull up quad.
They get a shortlist.
And all of a sudden, that becomes the shortlist that goes to the RFP process.
Wow.
It's amazing.
This is now the reality of a B2B.
buyer's journey.
The way to influence those decisions, no one is quite sure how to do that yet.
You know, I think no one's sure.
We're figuring it out.
But I think what we're learning is the importance of, you know, cultural relevancy and authority.
That has never been more important than it is today.
You have to be in the conversation.
So you have to be culturally relevant for your category, for your space.
And you have to be loved and advocated for by third parties.
So comms is storming.
I was going to say, because earned media suddenly becomes more important.
This is the era of the earned media.
Because the LLM is going to discount the owned media in a different way?
They do.
They discount the owned media, and they place more emphasis on what others are saying about you.
So earned media community has never been more important.
Almost every CMO I am talking to now is thinking through their YouTube strategy and their Reddit strategy.
With regards to influencers, you see marketers saying, hey, I'm turning my whole, a large part of my budget to creators and influencers because everyone is realizing I got to have someone with authority validate me.
There is a difference in impact between you telling your own story and someone else telling a story about you.
So what kind of stories are landing most right now?
unexpected brand collaborations, a $350 million investment in humanity, a SpaceX-sized IPO.
We'll talk about all that and more after the break.
Stay with us.
Hey, listeners, Bob here.
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There's going to be two types of companies.
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Before the break, Autodesk star Atreceder talked about this year's Can Lions and changes in the world of advertising and marketing.
Now we talk about the brand of Elon Musk post SpaceX IPO, why Autodesk is investing $350 million in the next generation of workers and more.
Let's dive back in.
Here at Cannes, there was a time where all of the activations were ad agencies, right?
And then they became the tech platforms and you have Meta here and you have Google here, whatever.
But we don't have yet.
open AI and Anthropic sort of owning the beach yet.
I think it's just a matter of time because they're starting to activate.
There's always a scouting.
I think they're in their little scouting time.
They're coming in, they're checking out, they're saying, what are those people doing there with all that rosé and sunshine?
Right?
They're scouting to figure out how they want to show up.
But I think it is inevitable.
It was interesting to see Databricks.
If I had told you a company like Databricks would be at Cannes 10 years ago, you would have been like, girl, how much rosé have you had?
And I'd be like, none.
I just drink sparkling water.
But you know, you wouldn't have anticipated that.
We're seeing that.
change happen.
And I think this is the trend we're going to continue to see.
The other trend that seems to continue to grow here in a way that almost surprises me is the creator economy part of it.
I sort of thought, like, is it going to peak?
Are we over the top?
Not close, right?
You can't even blink without seeing a creator.
And I think that this speaks to the power of the authority and the third party.
community movement, right?
You can't design your campaign, your growth plans, your marketing strategy without thinking through what that is.
So do you think of creators as earned media or are they like collaborators?
I think that they are both.
Actually, I think some creators have built such a following that they are a media channel unto themselves.
And there are creators who are more in the collaboration space.
So it's both as some actually do both and some land more squarely in one of the two.
And calling it just the creator economy isn't really doing service to the variety that's that's available.
It's absolutely not doing service.
And in fact, what I would say is, you know, that.
collaboration is no longer just a distribution strategy.
It should be a design principle from the beginning.
I mean, brand collaborations, we see a lot of them around, right?
We talked about Adidas has a bunch of different brand collaborations.
Absolute Vodka did one with Tabasco.
I don't know if there are any that particularly resonate for you or that you're hearing people talk about.
Well, the Adidas and Oasis, right?
Everyone is talking about this because it's been a while.
since you had two Grand Prix's in one day.
Oasis have been long-time...
fans of adidas it's a collaboration that sort of um each side reinforces the other in the same way they're like and it's mutually beneficial because it was great for awaysis too it made them cool right it made them show up in interesting ways it provided merch for them for their for their fans that was differentiated unexpected it allowed them to surprise and delight their community the best partnerships are mutually beneficial and so i'm curious like there's a there's a collaboration between swatch and piaget right which know, did well, but it's also sort of a high-end brand with a more mass market brand.
Is that a different kind of risk?
It's a different kind of risk.
You have to be...
confident and understand what your customer is looking for.
There are certain high-end customers.
Like, I don't really think Hermes would ever say, hey, here's a Birkin, you know, collab, because it would compromise the integrity of the brand.
So I think you have to figure out, hey, what am I trying to accomplish?
And what makes sense?
When you're a brand trying to go down market, sometimes you have to, you know, think about new ways to reach your downmarket customers, but you do not want to compromise the business from your upmarket customers.
You want to make sure that you continue.
And that's a tricky dance.
It's a very tricky dance.
It's a fine line and you don't want to cross over.
Right.
And I guess sometimes the luxury brands, they're just trying to stay relevant.
They're trying to stay relevant.
So they have to sort of reach sometimes to places.
But usually they'll do it as a limited capsule, right?
To find a way to put a boundary around it and keep it in that box, if you will, to preserve the rest.
of the brand story.
Right.
To get into culture a little bit more, but to maintain their status.
Exactly.
Get into culture without losing the fight.
Are there other campaigns and things that you're hearing people talk about, you're talking about, that you're seeing here?
So I really loved the DeLonghi coffee campaign.
I thought it was beautiful.
Right.
So they took a coffee maker and they redesigned an actual coffee shop.
It was bringing the element of appreciation of the coffee shop experience into your home.
And that's, you know, every coffee drink.
My husband drinks a lot of coffee.
And the first thing he does when he gets up is goes to his coffee.
He loves that coffee machine, you know, starts to make his coffee.
And to be able to do that in a machine.
that reminds you of your favorite coffee shop.
There's a power to that.
Obviously, I'm also going to say they're an Autodesk customer.
So I love that.
And they won awards, right?
And part of what I think grabbed a lot of people's hearts and minds is the power of craft, making, bringing the outside in, in an authentic way.
The industry craft that is sometimes a lost art.
in the age of AI.
The role of the CMO is, it's changing in some organizations.
I mean, there've been some studies I've seen recently that CMOs are more relied on on CEOs than they used to be for high-level decisions.
Where should CMOs sit in sort of business strategy?
I think if you're a business that wants to be successful, your CMO should have a real seat at the table and should be empowered to win.
Because you are absolutely seeing the best companies are treating their CMOs like strategic partners.
They're not seeing them just as the marketers, but they're seeing them as enterprise-wide business leaders.
And you are seeing that path from CMO to CEO.
It is happening at a much faster pace.
than it was happening even just five years ago.
And the reason for that is because as CMOs, our remits are so broad.
We have to think about everything from the events and experiences and the activation at CAN all the way to the go-to-market strategy, the revenue accountability, the pipeline creation, to the technology stack.
We are on the forefront of the implementation of AI internally.
And so having a CMO have a real seat at the table gives the C-suite, the company, a competitive edge and advantage.
I mean, what has tended to happen sometimes is when things don't go well for a business revenue-wise, the CMO gets blamed.
And when things do go well, the business unit...
takes the credit for it, right?
How important is it for CMOs to like have control of their own source of revenue for the business?
I think it's really important to have that revenue accountability, especially for areas of the business where marketing is in first chair, like digital business.
Like for example, at Autodesk, I oversee our digital business.
It makes sense that it sits with me because it begins and ends with marketing.
So you are in charge of delivering revenue.
Yes, I have a line.
I have to deliver.
I'm in charge of delivering revenue for our digital business, our e-commerce business, the Autodesk store.
Most of my CMO friends are in a similar situation.
Accountability and ownership have to go hand in hand.
And businesses are seeing that separating the two do not set the company up for success.
So really getting that done is important.
And the point you made about when things go wrong, marketing gets blamed.
But when it's all going well, nobody's talking to us.
It's a real point.
And I'm going to sit with it for a minute.
You know, we're in Cannes.
We have air conditioning.
We've got some time.
So we're going to talk about this for a minute.
Because I often say marketing.
It's like plumbing.
When was the last time, Bob, you went to your house and you were like, ooh, I love my plumbing?
thinking about your plumbing on the day to day only when the pipes break but i bet when the pipe breaks you're thinking about it until it gets fixed right yes you can't you can't exist in a house i need that plumber now you need that plumber now and that is the that is the reality for a lot of marketing it's often invisible it's behind the scenes it's not top of mind but when one little thing goes wrong It's the topic of conversation.
And so our job actually as CMOs is to market the marketing.
We have to make sure that internally and externally, the value of marketing is understood.
And you see it all the time now, right?
Your reputation matters as a business.
Customers will switch like that from one service to the other because of the trust in the brand, in the business, and the story that is being told by a powerful marketing engine.
you know, the story of a business is its strategy.
And the strategy has to be a story.
Like all of those things have to fit together.
Absolutely.
It has to be cohesive.
That is how you build a house that stands the test of time.
So we started by talking about the Knicks as a brand.
I want to ask you about a different brand and your take on Elon Musk as a brand.
Because...
To me, a lot of the buying of SpaceX is about him as opposed to being about the business.
I mean, we definitely have to say it's cult of personality.
That is a lot of what they're betting on, betting on him, his strategy, his vision.
That is increasingly becoming the name of the game.
especially in technology.
The people behind the products have never been more important than they are today.
And so that almost shapes the company's strategy.
It shapes the perception of the product.
People are willing to put up with a lot when they believe in the personality.
You know, they're willing to believe things that...
almost seem unbelievable to a logical person thinking about fundamentals because they're not betting on reality.
They're betting on their perception of potential based on the personality.
But there's more, I don't want to say there's pressure, but there's a model for having your CEO be like a celebrity, like a public celebrity.
It is definitely, especially for these large tech brands, the CEO personality, the CEO being a celebrity, the CEO being out there, not just the CEO.
senior leaders on the executive team building their cult following is a core part to driving growth.
And look, Elon Musk is having a good year, right?
He's having a good year.
And I think that, you know, regardless of what anyone thinks, the SpaceX IPO was a success.
Now, what will happen in the long run, we're all going to wait and see.
Let's grab our popcorn and see what happens.
We'll see what happens.
Well, as always, this is great.
As we As we look to the year ahead, are there themes or lessons or guidance that you're most focused on right now?
Yes.
You know, I'm really focusing on investing in the people.
There's not been enough conversations about how we are investing in the next generation.
Let's take a minute and just reflect on what's happening.
A lot of students just graduated.
I went to a few graduation celebrations.
You saw booing happen.
in certain instances.
Because these students are walking into the toughest job market.
And at the same time, like you said, trillionaires are being minted.
On Autodesk, we think about this deeply.
We actually just committed $350 million to invest in preparing the next generation for jobs in this AI era.
Over three years, we're going to be doing the work to provide access to technology, training, and credentialing.
And I would say that as a company, really think about your people internally and externally.
How are you investing to help them win?
Because when...
When you do that, you're going to set yourself up for success in the long run and win that long game, right?
You'll be the Knicks.
Well, Dara, as always, great to talk with you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Conversations with Dara leave me both joyful and reflective.
What stuck with me most this time about the lesson she shared was the through line of intentionality.
The speed of technology today makes it easier than ever to be reactive.
And that lack of intentionality can lead to oversights and a creeping staleness.
Sure, it takes extra effort to carve out the time and focus to be intentional.
And none of us have enough time.
But we can all taste the difference between a meal that's been lovingly prepared and one that's rushed out in ultra-process.
So my advice?
Make the time.
Don't automate away the critical moments we need.
to consider things.
As Dara says, you can't be a thought leader without a thought.
I'm Bob Safian.
Thanks for listening.
Rapid Response is a Wait What original.
I'm Bob Safian.
Our executive producer is Eve Trow.
Our senior producer is Alex Morris, and our associate producer is Masha Makutonina.
Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli and Brian Pugh.
Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday.
Our head of podcasts is Lital Moolad.
For more, visit RapidResponseShow.com.