# M.M. LaFleur: Psychographics, Resilience, and Value Reframing

**Podcast:** How I Built This with Guy Raz
**Published:** 2026-05-21

## Transcript

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you.
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1-800-433-1298.
Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Sarah LaFleur.
She's the founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand, M.M.
LaFleur.
Sarah, it's great to have you back on the show.
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
Oh, excited to have you.
You've been on the show twice before, actually.
First time was in February 2020 to tell us the story of building M.M.
LaFleur.
And like many founders we've had on the show, you started the brand because you had a problem to solve, which was you were a corporate consultant.
And just too many clothing options didn't really fit in with what you wanted to wear.
And that, of course, was back in 2011.
And then along the way, you built this awesome brand, but then you had some challenges, especially during COVID.
And we're going to get an update about what happened.
But it's a great episode for anybody who hasn't heard it.
We'll put a link to it in the show notes.
So before we get to our callers, I was hoping to just kind of catch up.
Tell us a little bit about how things have been going since you were last on the show.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, I feel like I have lived 10 lives.
And I think, you know, last time I was on your show, I think I was seven months pregnant, and now my kids are five and a half.
So, yeah, it's been a wild five and a half years.
And yes, COVID was.
horrible for my business.
You know, our revenue in 2020 was down 60% from 2019.
We had to go through three rounds of layoffs.
It was so painful.
We had to close every single one of our stores and then reopen some of them.
And then we actually opened some new stores as well.
So, you know, we got the business to profitability in 2022 again and have just been steadily growing since.
It feels like in many ways I feel lucky that I got to have a second shot at it.
You know, I really thought I was going to lose it all.
And it's been this amazing experience of getting to build and rebuild the brand and hopefully doing it smarter the second time around.
Yeah, I remember in our conversation, the thing that really struck me, and I think so innovative about this brand is the idea of a uniform.
And I think about you a lot because anyone who's seen me do anything live or in public knows that I have a uniform.
It's a blue blazer and sort of greenish trousers and a white shirt.
It's just what I wear where I feel comfortable.
I have 15 different blue blazers.
And it might sound boring to some, but that's like what I feel best in.
And the concept of M.M.
LeFleur was to create a uniform.
Obviously, it was like a much more.
a broader line of offerings.
But that was the idea behind it.
Now you've expanded it where it's like it's still very professional, it's still very elegant, but it's not just for the office.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think for the majority of, you know, white collar professionals, there's some virtual work mixed in with just how we work these days.
So we have a really healthy mix of kind of more casual, we call it power casual clothing.
So it's like it's a blazer and denim.
Like that's that is like the way a lot of professional women dress these days.
And, you know, jackets are now the power item.
And I think it just it makes sense if you think about her lifestyle.
Like she might go to the office and then, you know, go to pick up her kids from school or she might go out for dinner with her friends and and to be able to just like take off that jacket.
You know, it helps you go pretty seamlessly from professional to casual.
And now, whereas like I think a lot of women would have said like, oh, I have a rack full of dresses.
I think a lot of women have a rack full of jackets.
I think we're talking about women sort of roughly late 20s to sort of mid to late 50s.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, we have almost equal age distribution, which is like one of the things I'm most proud about.
in our brand.
Like we don't really particularly skew young or mature or, you know, I think the professional woman, like the way she's dressing when she's 27 is not all that different from how she's dressing when she's 47.
Yeah.
Hopefully she has more disposable income and she's able to invest in more like quality pieces and things that she'll wear for the long term.
But we really, we like to say it, you know, at MM, it's a psychographic, not a demographic.
Huh.
That's really, really interesting.
All right.
You ready to take our first call?
Can't wait.
This is so exciting.
All right.
Let's do it.
Let's bring in our first caller.
Welcome to the advice line.
You are on with Sarah LaFleur, founder of MM LaFleur.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, Sarah and Guy.
My name is David Rustiano.
I'm calling in from Point Pleasant Beach, New Jersey, and I am the founder of a company called Soar.
We make muscle recovery products, all natural, non-invasive ways to add wellness and self-care to your daily routine without adding much time or trouble to it.
Okay.
Thanks for calling in, David.
So tell me what your product is.
Is it muscle recovery, like Theraguns?
What are you selling?
A lot more low-tech than Theragun's.
Our hero product is called Soar Soap, and it's a physical therapy tool-shaped bar of ultra-hard analgesic all-natural soap, and it's hand-stamped into a muscle-scraping tool.
You hang it up in your shower on a suction cup holder so it stays high and dry and germ-free.
And every time you get in the shower after a run or a Pilates workout or just a long day of work, you scrape your muscles.
I usually start with the back of my neck and work my way down.
And I focus on my calves and my Achilles, nose areas.
This is like a fascia kind of thing, right?
Like loosening your fascia.
Is that the idea?
Yep, it is.
It works on soft tissue and fascia.
And we originally created it with athletes in mind.
But it's really, it's straddled into the wellness and healthcare space.
We work with a lot of physical therapists.
My co-founder is a doctor of physical therapy.
And when did you start the business?
Like so many businesses, we started during COVID.
My men's soccer leagues were shut down here in New Jersey.
So I needed something to keep my mind and body occupied.
So I went for a long run and my hip flexor was sore.
So when I got home, I jumped in the shower like normal, and I saw a bar of Irish spring in the soap dish that my wife had just put in there.
And it has a little bit of a curve on the bottom, and it reminded me of the Graston tool that my doctor, my physical therapist, who's now my business partner, used on my calf when I had a calf strain.
So I started to scrape my hip flexor, and it felt great.
And I worked my way down to my quads and my calves and my Achilles, and it was an immediate feeling of relief and recovery.
Being the designer that I am, I jumped out of my shower and I ran into my studio and I started drawing logos and doing a Google search for real therapeutic massage soap.
And I realized that there was nothing like it out there.
So I wrote myself a little poor man's patent.
And then a few days later, I called my partner, Dr.
Dan, and he was interested.
And we've been running ever since.
Nice.
Okay.
And this is sold?
through your website or do you sell in stores or where can people buy it?
Sure.
We do sell it at sourceoap.com.
Most, I would say maybe 85 to 90% of our sales are direct to consumer.
But we work with a lot of physical therapists and forward-thinking chiropractors and athletic trainers, and they do sell it in their offices.
We actually just landed a deal to get our non-soap tool.
After we realized that people really embraced this idea of doing, you know, do-it-yourself muscle scraping, we made a lightweight tool that people could fly with, run with, travel with.
It's not metal.
It's TSA approved, and it's very lightweight.
You know, we have a lot of people that run marathons, and they'll keep it in their vest.
while they're running and they'll treat their muscles right there on the fly.
So we released that and we were in vitamin shop.
So that's our biggest retailer to date.
And how are you guys doing in sales?
It's been a wild ride.
When we originally started, we did 16,000 in sales.
Then the next year we did 33.
And then the year after that, we did 120.
And then we were lucky enough to be on a show called Shark Tank, which was really an amazing experience.
And we did about 440,000 that year.
Then we came back down to Earth a little bit in 2025, and we're back down to about 105,000.
Got it.
Yeah.
So it's pretty good.
We had that shark tank spike, but now things have kind of leveled up.
Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?
Sure.
So Sarah, listening to your episode of the podcast while I was running, there were so many touch points that I felt I could connect with you and ask you about.
Our moms being a big inspiration in our life was one of them.
But the question that I centered on, because I think it's a big issue for a lot of founders in our spot, whether you're successful or not, we all have that little bit of self-doubt.
So even as our companies and our ideas start to work, self-doubt never disappears.
It just gets a little quieter.
How did you learn to trust your instincts and keep moving when you weren't always sure you were right?
Great question.
Sarah LaFleur, I want to bring you in here for this, obviously.
Self-doubt, I will just say from the get-go, when I have founders who I meet who have no self-doubt, those are the ones that worry me.
I was going to say, I was going to crack a joke, like self-doubt, I don't know what you're talking about.
I was going to say, it's not a little bit.
I feel like managing self-doubt is like so much of the job.
And I think managing your own psyche is the number one CEO job.
I started working with this mental strength coach last year.
Primarily, he teaches meditation and we also do a bunch of other things.
Journaling is...
one of them, but it is the first time in my, gosh, 14 years of running the business where I'm finding some relief.
And, you know, we've been through hell and back.
Just like I'll tell you in like the past five to six years, obviously we had COVID, which almost took out my business, but then we survived that.
And then 2023, we had Silicon Valley Bank, which we banked with.
That was the scariest 72 hours.
But then in 2024, my lender went under, and we had like an urgent capital call, essentially.
And that actually was probably the closest I've ever come to losing my business.
And every single one of those moments, I really dealt with like enormous self-doubt and like, how the hell did I end up here?
And what am I doing?
I really wish I could just throw in the towel and call it quits.
But for some reason, I can't.
I love it too much.
Yeah, I feel the same way.
I feel like without the business, there'd be less purpose in my life to overcome those challenges and overcome those emotional hurdles.
The business has turned into one of my prime motivators to help other people feel better physically makes me feel accomplished mentally and emotionally, if that makes sense.
That's so beautiful.
I mean, like what more could we ask for, you know, in our lives?
Yeah, I would double down on what you said, Sarah.
I mean, I think that this is one of the questions almost every founder feels.
And certainly I hope everyone, every founder that comes on our show, because we do vet them.
You know, we want founders who have self-doubt to come on the show.
It's critical, right?
And I think.
For the most part, it doesn't entirely ever go away, but it evolves.
It becomes easier to manage, right?
And the trick is, like, how do I make decisions even when I'm not feeling as confident, right?
And even with this show I've been doing for 10 years, there are times where I certainly have self-doubt.
You know, are we doing the right thing?
Interviews sucked.
You know, I think that's natural, and I think it's important to constantly.
interrogate how you're doing things.
But I think the way to avoid kind of spiraling into just endless uncertainty, at least in my case, and Sarah, you may have a different take or similar, is I look at signals that actually matter, right?
Like data or feedback or when I interact with people.
And that...
is really helpful.
And in your case, there's going to be tons of data, right?
Like who's buying this repeatedly?
And what's your customer acquisition cost?
And what are the conversion rates?
And that's going to ebb and flow, but it helps to kind of focus, at least for me, when I start to really think about the fundamentals, even when I have times of self-doubt, it just, I find that leaning on the data, even when it's not always great news, is really helpful because it gives me something to kind of benchmark against.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, totally.
And even if it's a little more anecdotal in our case, there's fence posts that I can identify in the last few years that keep me propped up, that get me through those tough times.
Like when we go to the Philadelphia Marathon, so many people come over, repeat customers, oh, I used your product.
I PR'd, I ran my best marathon time ever, or I got through my training block with less pain.
I mean, that's such a rewarding interaction.
And it was just, it's moments like that, Sarah, that, you know, get you through those nights where you're laying in bed going, what am I doing?
You know, especially in this competitive world that we're all in on social media.
Yeah.
I mean, I, first of all, you're an athlete, so you're, you're kind of, you're already here, but I think this, this idea of like practice, it's, it's, it's all about the practice.
And I will say, like, for me personally, like meditation, which I did not used to do a year ago, has been game changing for me because I, like, work myself into these spirals at times.
And then I, like, need to find the calm within.
Like, ultimately, like, no sense of external validation or the numbers.
Like, that's not really what's going to lead me to calm.
It's like I have to find the calm within me.
And so, you know, I think that could be anything.
It could be a walk in the park.
It could be a coffee with a friend.
It could just be you sitting quietly, like, somewhere.
But I think it's, like, how can you know that, you know, everything you need you have right here?
Yep.
And how can you get yourself back to that state?
I think that's so important.
And then I was going to say, I feel like, David, like, you clearly hit on something with this, like, soap.
But I feel like your mission is bigger than that.
And I wonder if maybe you could channel some of that energy, not into sales and marketing, but maybe it's new product development.
Because I think you're onto a bigger mission about helping athletes take care of themselves easily and more affordably.
I have some ideas.
You have some ideas, right.
Okay, great.
I do.
I mean, the ideas never stop.
It's going through them and qualifying them mentally first.
And Guy, I wanted to work this in, but you gave me an opportunity.
Sarah, my closest thing to meditation that I do is I go for a three or five mile run and I listen to this podcast.
I mean, that's my moment of zen.
I love that.
You've got me through many miles that I didn't want to run.
Okay, great.
Well, and meditation is awesome.
I totally agree when I am consistent.
It is a game changer.
hiking in the woods.
I try to do that a few times a week.
I'm lucky to live near the woods.
And one more thing, it's a big responsibility, but a dog.
I got to take my dog out for a walk twice a day.
Me too.
Energy release a few times a week.
That is really the best.
He's one of my best buddies, my little dog, Teddy.
He's been in a lot of our social media.
So we have a lot of followers on TikTok that tune in just for Teddy.
Awesome.
David Restiano, the brand is called Soar.
Thanks so much for calling.
Good luck.
Thank you, guys.
Thank you.
Thank you.
No, I love those questions because it's not about like, hey, how do I, you know, it's not necessarily about how do I make more money with my business.
It's like, how do I just, you know, as you know, running a business is an emotional rollercoaster ride.
Running anything is, it's really, can be really, really hard.
on your mental health.
Yeah, I could not agree more.
It's hard because it's hard.
And I think sometimes founders need to hear that message.
We're like, oh, why can't I just get this right?
Look at this other brand having this kind of success or whatever it is.
And, you know, it's not for the faint of heart.
It really isn't.
And I think we just have to, you know, it's an acknowledgement with yourself.
Like it's hard because it's hard and you chose the hard path.
The Hard Thing About Hard Things, I think that's the name of the book.
Oh, Ben Horwitz.
Yeah.
Ben Horwitz.
I'm sorry.
Ben Horwitz.
That's right.
He has a chapter where he basically says like the best CEOs are the ones that didn't give up.
So, you know, I take it to heart and I think all founders need to hear that every now and then.
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of M.M.
LaFleur.
And let's bring our next caller.
Welcome to the advice line.
You're on.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, Guy and Sarah.
My name's Marnie, and I'm calling from a little coastal town on the East Coast in Australia.
My business is called Tick Socks, which are fun socks with built-in tick protection.
I've been working on it for over a year, and it finally launched last month.
Awesome.
Marnie, welcome to the show.
So you are in Australia.
Tick Socks, these are socks that protect you from ticks.
So tell me how they work.
So they have...
built-in permethrin, which is factory bonded.
I license an existing textile technology and it lasts through 70 washes versus the DIY methods that outdoorsy people like hikers are used to doing, which lasts about six washes.
Right.
So like when I spray DEET on my socks or something, I mean, that may not even last one wash, but this basically means you don't have to spray yourself.
It's embedded in the material last 70 washes.
Tell me how you came up with this idea.
So a few years ago, I was outside with my newborn son, giving him some nudie-roody time, which is diaper-free time, swatting mosquitoes away from him.
We were just fresh home from hospital, so I really didn't want to spray him with anything.
I'm obviously pro-insect repellent, but this was a time when we weren't even putting gentle soaps in the bath.
He was so fresh and new.
So I found myself thinking, What if the blanket that he was lying on could have the repellent in it rather than me putting it on his skin?
Okay.
All right.
So now you are now selling the socks.
And tell me about how much do the socks cost?
So they're sold in a box of four for $119 US, which includes shipping.
Got it.
Okay.
And where are you selling them?
Are you selling them through your website or in stores in Australia?
Where are they being sold?
Direct-to-consumer just in the US for a couple of reasons.
It's a much larger market to launch and validate the idea.
And also the insect repelite industry is heavily regulated.
So it made more sense to launch in one market and validate rather than going global and dealing with all of the regulations of all the different countries at the same time.
Right.
Okay.
And I'm just curious, are ticks as big of a problem in Australia as they are in parts of the U.S., certainly the East Coast of the U.S.?
They are a huge problem here, but we don't have the tick-borne disease to the extent that the U.S.
has.
So, you know, it's an enormous public health issue over there, whereas it's not the same over here.
Got it.
Okay.
Can you give us a sense?
I mean, imagine you're new, so probably sales are maybe a little slow or how's it going?
Yeah, so I've made almost 20 sales, which I'm actually super excited about.
Great.
Yeah, every time I get a sale, I do a little happy dance.
But it's already been a journey.
Like, I've already learned so much.
I've had a few posts go viral, and then that didn't translate into what you would expect viral sales to be.
So it's been, you know, it's been a roller coaster already.
Got it.
Okay, before we bring in Sarah, tell us your question.
What do you need help with?
My question is, when your product combines functional and emotional value, but people associate it with something that they're used to buying cheaply, what actually helps justify the price in those first few seconds before you lose their attention?
All right.
Great question.
I want to bring you in, Sarah, because you have dealt with this issue, too.
I mean, you are selling premium products, but at a very affordable price now.
But I think probably initially you were not able to do that.
Yeah.
I mean, Marnie, you were kind of speaking to a lot of the journey that we went through when, you know, I first launched the brand, which is that I could sell my products in person.
Like when my customers tried on, you know, our dresses, our blazers, they really, they got it immediately and they would convert.
But online, it was really, really hard to kind of show people why this black dress was.
so much more superior to another black dress for a fraction of the price.
And I think you're probably running into some of the same challenges here.
Just so I better understand, you mentioned there are other socks out there that have a similar function to your socks, to Tick socks.
But what makes Tick socks superior is that it maintains that Tick repellent quality for 70 washes versus the five to six.
Is that right?
Yeah, so the five to six is the DIY method.
So you can spray and soak yourself, which is, it's just a hassle, like it's laboursome.
And that's where that emotional value comes into the equation.
Like it's peace of mind, it's hustle free.
But there are, like permethrin treated clothing is a thing and there are other socks on the market that exist.
My biggest differentiation is the look and feel of them.
So they're fun and they're made of breathable bamboo.
Whereas...
The alternatives on the market are very utilitarian and they're marketed towards like, you know, the hunters, the hikers.
No one's really made it accessible, targeting women aged between like 30 and 50.
So lots of them are mums.
They're looking for like some fun socks that they want their husband or themselves or their children to wear rather than, you know, like a khaki colour.
Yeah, I mean, what's interesting to me about these is that they're colorful and interesting.
And anybody who's been to an REI or a camping store knows what getting permethrin and soaking your socks or even buying the clothing.
I mean, a lot of it's just boring, right?
And so this is fun.
It looks fun.
But I think your problem, right, is that it's the price point that people kind of are surprised about.
Because, right, because they're looking at this, $119 for socks.
And I think that the way you want to think about it is that you want to reframe that instantly.
Like you want to kind of push this to moms who are sending their kids to summer camp in Connecticut and Massachusetts where Lyme disease is rampant, right?
Kids playing in tall grass.
And that's where I would sort of focus on the $119.
Be really transparent about it.
I mean, literally $119 for socks, for four pairs of socks.
And you answer right away.
Yeah, because we don't sell socks.
We sell a summer worth of protection.
And then suddenly $119 for four socks doesn't seem like a lot.
I mean, that's four pairs of socks you're sending your kid to camp with.
You're good to go.
Like, you know, as a parent who sent my kids to camp, I'm always like.
thinking about ticks and always looking for ticks after hikes, I would really kind of frame your pitch to that audience.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's sort of like you're leaning more into the emotional value, which is I've had this tug of war of like that's...
That's where my head originally went and that's where I wanted to go.
And then I got a lot of questions of, but what actually is it?
Like, what's the actual repellent and what's the active ingredient?
Like very technical questions.
Which you should show, which you should show on your website.
I would show a comparison between like a microscopic image of the fabric, you know, regular fabric versus your fabric.
And I would show that on your site.
I would show that in social media that you do.
I would hammer that home because I think people are going to want to see that.
I was going to say.
First of all, I am that mom that migrates to Connecticut for some part of the summer.
And we are in like tick city.
So I'm with Guy on this one.
The first people that I thought about buying this product for are my kids.
Like, yeah, of course, I'm worried about myself too.
But, you know, I know better than to roll around in the field.
My kids do not.
And so, Marnie, I think this is just my hypothesis.
I don't think direct-to-consumer is the right distribution channel for you.
I think it's really, really hard to have a single product, a fairly niche single product, thrive on direct-to-consumer.
But I think you would kill it at a lot of outdoor stores.
And I think you would kill it with the camp crowd, like Guy said.
And my thought was, you know, at a lot of these American camps, parents have to purchase a lot of gear.
A lot of gear.
You know, T-shirts, whatever.
Bunch of stuff.
Crazy amounts.
to get their kids ready for camp, even if it's just a day camp.
And I wonder if you can actually partner with these camps directly to say, you know, I have created the best socks for your campers.
I will donate 10%, 20% to your camp if you agree to distribute this link.
And just see if you can pick up, get some traction that way.
And that's still direct-to-consumer, but I think like almost a business-to-business, you know, type arrangement.
Yeah.
I'm also, I know you said pricing, but I'm just doing a quick, you know, Google search comparison.
Like a lot of these tick socks, they're like L.L.
Bean has one for $27 or, you know, I'm not saying that they're exactly like your product, but it makes me think the pricing.
may not be so much the issue.
Like, it sounds like the market is already priced around there.
And I think your products are so fun and exciting and they really stand out when laid side by side by something more neutral and bland and beige, like you said.
So I do think you really have a shot at, you know, winning versus your competitor here.
But I don't think this should be direct-to-consumer.
I wonder, Sarah, whether you can split the – what's the cliche I'm looking for?
In half.
Split the difference?
Yes.
Which is you could have a D2C.
You can continue the D2C side because obviously that's where you get the profitability.
Yeah.
you know, have that distributor work with you to try to pitch them down the road.
But the other thing that you might want to do, you know, because a distributor certainly is not cheap, is I would just email camp directors and see what they say.
You email 100 of them, you know, 30 of them might get back to you.
Yeah, got nothing to lose.
It's a great idea.
Got nothing to lose.
And I think they're not used to getting pitches like this is my guess.
they may just be more open to it versus like, yes, of course, like be awesome to be an REI.
Like that's where Marnie's headed for sure.
But like really understanding who your customer is and just going directly to them through this medium rather than, you know, performance marketing and ads, those are going to be so expensive.
And it's just going to cost way more than what, you know, the business can probably afford right now.
Try this route.
I'm so curious to hear how it goes.
And it builds a brand.
And the other thing is some of these camps, all these camps, they have merch.
I mean, some of them might say, hey, you could even suggest it.
Would you be interested in collaborating where we put our logo on the socks?
Yes.
Thank you so much.
So much food for thought.
I really appreciate it.
Sarah, last minute advice, last minute wisdom for Marnie?
Oh, you made the product fun.
And I love the packaging.
I was going to say, the packaging kind of sold me.
I was like, I want to open that box.
So great, great job on the branding and making it fun.
Thank you.
Congrats, Marnie.
The brand is called Tick Socks.
Marnie Shanahan, thanks for calling in.
Good luck.
Thank you so much, Kai and Sarah.
Thank you.
Bye.
Yeah, I'm super paranoid about ticks.
I'm in California, so we don't really have Lyme disease as much.
It does occur here, but I have picked off ticks, I don't know about you, like with tweezers, and put them in baggies and sent them off to get tested because I'm so paranoid.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
Chris is from- Your husband.
Town of Old Lyme.
Yeah, Chris, my husband, is from the town of Old Lyme.
Oh, he's from, oh, he is, that's, wow.
Yeah, so, you know, birthplace of Lyme disease.
But yeah, when we take out our dog on a hike, it's like rare that he doesn't come back with at least 20 ticks.
Right, every time.
Every time.
And then they jump on us, yep.
Correct.
So it's a real pain point for a lot of people.
A niche one, potentially.
But $25 to $30 for.
For relief for the anxious parent.
And I think a lot of parents could get over that, that price point.
Yeah.
Man, it's extra scary.
And for some reason, there's only a vaccine for dogs.
Dogs.
Right.
We figured it out for dogs.
Hopefully we can figure it out for our kids.
It was the human one.
Yeah.
All right.
We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.
Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand, M.M.
LaFleur.
Sarah, are you ready for our next call?
Let's do it.
All right, let's bring in our final caller to the show.
Welcome to The Advice Line.
You're on with Sarah LaFleur, founder of M.M.
LaFleur.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, Sarah.
Hi, Guy.
I'm David Bronke.
I'm calling in from Brooklyn, New York.
I'm co-founder of Siblings, which is an eco-home fragrance brand tackling throwaway culture through clean, refillable candles.
David, welcome to the show.
Thank you for calling.
All right, you're in Brooklyn.
Siblings is the brand.
So you sell candles.
So I'm thinking like we just received like one of those diptyque candles as a gift and, you know, you burn it.
And then I hope we reuse the jar for like...
coins or something.
That's not what this is.
You don't just throw away the glass container?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So we're making candles that are better for you and better for the planet.
You know, it's a candle you never have to throw away.
So you simply reuse it through scents and seasons with our easy candle refills.
And these refills are what come in 100% compostable bags.
And all you have to do is melt the wax, pour it into your forever vessel, and you have a new candle.
Huh.
Okay, so just to clarify, you get these nice kind of containers, ceramic or whatever they're made out of.
And do you like put in a microwave to melt?
Like, how does that, is it like little pellets of wax?
How does that work?
Yeah, it's different.
So you're right.
It is a ceramic vessel.
We actually have our ceramics.
It's 95% recycled clay.
And then the bag, it's 100% compostable.
And inside of it is a block of wax.
And you stick that bag in the microwave, melt it, takes a couple minutes, and then pour that into your forever vessel or your candle that's empty.
And you just...
are able to refill easily.
Okay, got it.
And all right, so tell me a little bit about the business.
When did you launch it?
Back in 2019, I launched this business with my sister, hence the name Siblings.
We grew up on a horse farm outside of Buffalo, New York, and we just watched our parents live.
very sustainably.
I mean, it was limited material things, everything passed down and fixed, and the biggest compost pile you've ever seen behind the barn.
So we just had that sustainable mindset instilled in us early on.
Years later, Eva, my co-founder, is living in Stockholm, and she's surrounded by incredible Scandinavian design.
And like a lot of people there, she was burning endless candles through the long, dark winters.
And when she kind of looked closer at all these candles she was burning, she just, something was off.
Somebody didn't feel right.
You know, it's this beautiful ritual that's supposed to bring you joy and you end up throwing it away again and again.
And that doesn't feel good.
So that's ultimately what led to siblings.
I love it.
And all your sales are direct to consumer right now?
Primarily all direct to consumer, but we do have a few retailers such as Credo Beauty and Nordstrom.
And are your sales one-offs or are they subscriptions or how does that?
What's the split?
Yeah, it's actually the subscription side has been growing because we've started what we call a seasonal box.
It's curated.
So each season, there's three new scents that a subscriber can get.
Otherwise, though, I would say it's pretty split.
A lot of people kind of just try to pick and choose the fragrances that fit with them and what they're looking for at that time.
Or they find a favorite and they just kind of get the same one over and over again.
Got it.
And give me a sense of your sales.
How'd you guys do last year?
Last year, we did over $2 million in sales, so the business is doing well.
Yeah, and we've kind of been in that low seven figure, though, for the last few years, and we're trying to break out of that.
Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us?
Yeah, so, I mean, I guess for ages, Americans have been in the habit of buying a candle, disposing of it when it's done.
You know, some people try to recycle it.
try to repurpose it, but the reality is most just end up in the trash.
And it really is analogous to the way people thought about plastic water bottles 15, 20 years ago.
We bought that bottle, we drank it, threw it away.
Now that's almost unthinkable as we've embraced reusable bottles.
And that's what candle vessels should be.
So the question we have is, what are the keys to shifting consumer behavior towards refilling something that people are used to throwing away?
Okay, great question.
Sarah LaFleur, I want to bring you in.
Before you answer David's question, any thoughts or questions for him?
Well, I was just going to say, I love the concept.
I think everything you said rings really true to me, especially as someone who runs a fashion brand, like this idea of like, you don't want to be the person who's just like making more crap and putting it out in the world.
And I think it's so beautiful that you and your sister.
founded this business.
And I would say it's genuinely the first time I've heard of anything like it.
So well done for coming up with that angle and then also executing on the product side because I imagine that wasn't easy either.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I was wondering with candles because I don't, it's not that I've never bought a candle for myself, but I usually receive them as gifts.
And I do have scents that I like, but I haven't been particularly loyal to one scent or to one candle brand.
I'm curious what percentage of your consumers are buying it as a gift to someone else versus buying it for themselves.
It's something that we've tried to find, obviously, through surveys and other things.
And we can kind of see when the shipping address is different from the...
billing address, you know, that's sometimes a little bit of a telltale.
And we try to find out who is gifting, and it's still a small percentage.
And I think that's partly because we're not maybe marketing it as well as a gift.
We kind of tend to talk more towards the users themselves.
But I think you're right.
Candles are a very giftable item, and we might be missing that a little bit.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, you know, I was thinking about...
The question, right?
Like, how do you shift consumers?
This is a question we get a lot because this is a heavy lift, right?
How do you get people to start to think about this in different ways?
And one of the reasons why I was curious about your subscriber base is because that really is – seems to me that is a huge opportunity, right?
Where you create that habit of getting a refill or ordering a refill when you get close to the end of the candle.
Are you – When you send out a candle to somebody with, you know, the scents, are you able to kind of time maybe a typical burn lifecycle to send them an email?
Or maybe you might even have a phone number, like an SMS to remind them, like, hey, it's time to order a refill?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that, I mean, we have a really strong retention rate because of that.
And what we tend to do is, you know, some people are.
quick burners.
Some people are two, three months.
They're just a little bit slower.
And we kind of try to see that through our data of when they're going to be out and try to present something to them, whether it's a new scent or their favorite scent at the right time.
Yeah.
You know, I think what's interesting is if you can sell the idea of less friction, right?
Like if you can, like I think of SodaStream.
SodaStream, most people are just buying soda, right?
But then once it became easy, you just go to the store and just get the...
the CO cartridges.
Lots of people adopted that and love it.
And that has become relatively low friction for most people.
And so that to me is like the idea of like this is easier than just going and buying a new candle.
But there's one other thing.
And I think, Sarah, this really speaks to what you do, which is I'm not convinced that eco-friendly and sustainable and better for the planet actually matter as much.
I actually think right now.
What matters to especially your kind of consumer is like the person who buys fewer things but better things.
Like that's in a lot of ways, that's the new luxury to have fewer things that actually are of value.
And I wonder whether you can kind of lean into that idea.
Like this is like having fewer better things.
That's actually luxurious.
Yeah, I actually agree with you.
As someone that we talk about internally, me and Eva, a lot of, we've just seen it.
There has been this shift.
I think people care about, you know, the better for you, better for the planet and the sustainability side.
But I don't know if it's necessarily the top of mind for buying decisions anymore.
But people absolutely want to have things that they can feel good about putting in their home.
I agree with Guy.
I think.
You know, maybe the attitudes around eco are shifting.
But I do think there's something here between the utilitarian versus like the, you know, it's used as a gift.
It's often something decorative in your house.
And the vessel to me is like the most important object that you're selling because you're saying that's the thing that you get to refill.
That's the thing that never leaves your house.
Once you bring it in, it's going to be here for years.
And so that vessel needs to be over-the-top beautiful.
It's that vessel that really will, I think, emotionally resonate with the customer because they're thinking that this is a refillable candle.
Like the scent's going to come and go, but it's the vessel that's going to stay in my home forever.
And I think that's where you have an opportunity to differentiate.
more.
I think right now it's a relatively straightforward looking, you know, it looks like a nice ceramic pot, but I wouldn't say it's wildly different.
Like if I, you want a sibling's vessel that's like unmistakable.
When you see a sibling's, you know, vessel, you know it from anywhere.
Yeah.
I think that's a really great idea.
And I think you're right.
So the design is nice.
It's lovely.
It reminds me a little bit of Heath Ceramics, if you know that brand.
But there's an opportunity to really use that as a canvas to try interesting things.
I think, practically speaking, with $2 million, you probably have a limited marketing budget.
But even if it's just a few thousand dollars, ideally, you want to use about 10% of that for marketing, but it's a lot.
I would really lean into videos that – short form videos that really show the ease of use and the beauty and the simplicity of having this beautiful vessel.
And I would consider spending some time and not – you don't have to spend a whole lot of money but time thinking about how to make some simple videos.
I love that.
Yeah, it really is.
It's a visual item.
Yes, I think that that really also resonates with me.
And maybe you already have a lot of these, you know, videos or ads running.
I think when you're describing like the microwave process, I was like, ooh, that for me was the friction point that came up, you know, when I was going down my marketing funnel.
I'm like now in the consideration phase.
What are the things that are stopping me from pulling the trigger?
It's, ooh, that sounds complicated.
And I think.
guys spot on with that, like show us through video how easy it is.
And I think that's one hurdle you can overcome.
I go back to the gifting.
Like I'm sure holidays are probably some of your strongest moments.
Just really going back to, okay, how can we make this a beautiful gift?
It feels like you're opening joy, you're opening comfort.
I think that's what we all look for when we gift a candle and hopefully receive one.
Yeah.
For sure.
I think it's a, you've got your work cut out for you, but you've got a great product and you've got a lot of traction, David.
So good luck.
The brand is called Siblings and keep us posted.
Thank you.
Thanks so much.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that, and also, you know, there's something like kind of Japanese, Scandinavian simplicity, like not chaotic.
Right?
Like a more...
Thinking about the HIG lifestyle.
The HIG.
That was the word.
The HIG.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
I don't know how to pronounce it yet.
Right.
Yeah.
My final question for you, Sarah, is if you could go back now to when you started MMO the Floor, you know, almost 15 years ago, and knowing what you know now and all the experience that you have gained, you're a very experienced operator and CEO and leader, what kind of advice could you give to that person, that Sarah?
15 years ago that might have been helpful?
That it's going to take me a decade to become a CEO.
Like I was founder from day one, but I think that's like the confusing thing about the founder-CEO role because you get slotted into these big titles, in my case at age 27.
And, you know, the truth is I really didn't know what I was doing, but I had this big dream and big ambition and I didn't really care if people thought I was totally crazy because I...
I knew what I wanted, and I wanted to go for it.
But to learn the operations of the job, to really understand what metrics matter and what don't, to learn people management skills and how to run a business, like, it really took me a decade to learn that.
Yeah.
And so I think some grace would have been.
Welcome.
And I think, you know, I probably could have asked for more help on how to be a CEO.
I think anyone can be a founder from day one, but a CEO is a hard job and it has to be in some ways learned on the job.
It's great advice.
And I think not enough people acknowledge that.
That's exactly right.
Starting the business, one thing, running it successfully is another thing.
That's Sarah LaFleur, founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand, M.M.
LaFleur.
Sarah, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Such an honor and just incredible to be back here five years later and get to play a small role in this amazing.
Family.
That is how I built this.
So thank you very much.
Well, you are a part of it now and forever.
And by the way, if you haven't heard Sarah's original How I Built This episode, go back and check it out.
It's a great story.
You can find a link to it in the podcast description.
And here is one of my favorite moments from that episode.
We still continue to do trunk shows.
We had revenue goals for the month.
And so if we weren't meeting our revenue goals, then we would, you know, set up a trunk show stat.
Right.
But online, it was just a totally different story.
We could not sell our dresses.
I have to assume your cash reserves were getting close to running out.
Not only did we run out, it actually went into the negatives.
Our bank account, I think at one point, said like negative 2,000 or something.
And I didn't know you could draw down beyond zero.
So that was a wake-up call.
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter.
You can sign up for it for free at GuyRoz.com or on Substack.
And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're...
currently facing because we would love to try and help you solve them.
You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298.
Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well.
This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing by John Isabella.
Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley.
Our music was composed by Ramtin Erablui.
Our production team also includes Alex Chung, J.C.
Howard, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Messini, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.