# Scaling Early-Stage CPG Brands: Manufacturing and Distribution

**Podcast:** How I Built This with Guy Raz
**Published:** 2026-04-16

## Transcript

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you.
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call, and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1-800-433-1298.
Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Boxed co-founder Che Wang.
Chay, it's so great to have you back on the show.
Thanks for having me back, Guy.
It's uh it's gonna be a great conversation.
So you, Che, you were first on how I built this in 2021.
And as always, if if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes.
Uh, but basically, 2013 you launched Boxed, which was an online bulk retailer that you um could get toilet paper and laundry detergent.
And I think it was like 500 of the most common household items, products, foods that people would buy.
Um, I remember you talking about you know packing of boxes and pallets of boxes coming to your parents' garage in New Jersey.
And you guys sent out tens of millions of these boxes of groceries around the country.
Um, since then, Boxed went public in 2021.
Uh and you ran into some difficult times after the after the the pandemic ended.
And unfortunately, by by 2023, you guys filed for bankruptcy, um, which I'm sure was extremely difficult.
I mean, the story of building Boxed and the success you guys achieved was amazing.
And I'm sure just what happened was so hard.
I mean, I have a million questions for you, but first of all, what was it like for you just personally going through that?
Because I can't imagine it was easy in in any way.
Yeah, it's been a wild, traumatic, I would say decade uh since the founding of Boxed.
But if we had a time machine and we traveled back to my parents' garage, and we told that person uh that story about what will happen in the next 10 years of of our journey and my life, I would say sign me up now.
Because the people I've met, the people we've helped, the things I've learned, I just wouldn't trade it for the world.
I love that.
You know, it's interesting because a lot of people will write in and say, why don't you guys focus on companies that didn't make it, right?
That failed.
But of course, over you know, 10 years of doing this show, we've had some companies that, you know, are aren't around anymore.
Uh it happens.
Yeah, you know, uh there are a variety of reasons.
I mean, in your case, there were probably macroeconomic uh, you know, challenges and competition from Sam's Club and Costco and other big box retailers.
Um what I mean, ultimately, in your view, was there anything that you could have done or could have been done differently to have prevented uh bankruptcy?
For sure.
First and foremost, any decision, especially business decision uh in life is could I have done better?
And we probably need 10 hours of tape in order to go through all the things that I feel like I personally could have done better.
But hindsight's 2020.
With that said, the um the macro factors were really tough.
So we were coming out of COVID.
We were a new issuance of public stock and the New York Stock Exchange.
We were unprofitable, small-ish cap.
So we were a little bit above a billion in terms of market cap.
Yeah.
And all an e-commerce COVID story.
Um, and so that was really tough.
And as your stock price starts to go down, people get spooked, your vendors get spooked, uh, and everyone gets spooked.
And so we still had what, almost 20 million dollars cash left in the bank, but collectively, we decided the best kind of path forward was boxed was to sell our software business.
So BlackRock ended up buying that and and owning that.
Uh, and then the e-commerce business uh unfortunately was shut down, but has since been resurrected.
But I have nothing to do with the the boxed uh that has been resurrected today.
So I know you presumably, you know, you took some time off, but I think you you did some interesting things afterwards to distint uh with the World Economic Forum, I think.
And now you are starting up a new company.
Uh tell me about it.
Yeah.
Um, someone I had known for a while who's a recruiter called and said, I've got the perfect job for you.
And I said, I think you're full of it.
And he's like, why?
And I said, You're a recruiter.
This is exactly what you say about every job.
Uh and he said, uh, that's true, but this one is really compelling.
And and it ended up being at the World Economic Forum.
So being able to get that, I guess that point of view on kind of macroeconomic conditions around the world and being able to meet an interesting people from around the world, both in the private and public sectors, really helped me incubate this next idea, both from an idea perspective, but more importantly from a co-founder perspective.
So I mean, tell me more about how it works.
So the company's called Pelgo, P-E-L-G-O.
My co-founder in this uh company is a gentleman named Frank D'Souza, whom I met at the World Economic Forum.
He co-founded and was a CEO of Cognizant, which is now like a fortune two or three hundred company, um, founded in the 90s.
And so basically, we had this thesis that there's going to be not only job destruction in America because of AI, but also job creation.
And what we found was that there's so many folks incentivized on job destruction.
And if that happens, who's taking care of the folks that are actually exiting their jobs?
Meaning that who's helping them prepare their resumes?
Who's helping them retrain?
And who's helping them find their next job in an AI-enabled world?
And of course, we came upon this industry called outplacement.
But what we found is outplacement is, you know, it costs several thousand dollars.
And unless you're a certain level of executive, you generally don't get it.
And so we thought, well, why don't we create an outplacement service where it really is for everyone?
It costs a fraction of what it does normally.
And so that's what we do.
We help folks land their next job faster in a more cost-effective way.
And that's Belco.
Well, congrats.
I mean, it's it's exciting to be, I'm sure, now back in the trenches.
Yeah, I love every moment of it.
I feel like my stress is up a hundred percent, but my happiness is up 500%.
So it's a fair trade.
All right, Chay, are you ready to take our first call?
Let's do it.
All right, let's bring on our first caller.
Welcome to the advice line.
You're on the Chain Wang, uh founder of Boxed.
Uh, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and uh a little bit about your business.
Uh my name is Alec, and I am calling from Cardiff by the Sea, California.
It's a small little beach down here in North County, San Diego.
And I started a small skincare brand called Surfing Cow.
It's just simple, natural skincare for people who live outside.
Also, guy, Che, dude, I'm so so stoked to talk to you guys right now.
Well, we're stoked to have you on, man.
This is crazy.
I have to say this also, guy.
I've listened to this show since 2016.
I love it.
2016, I'm going to business school.
I'm like, brick, dude, I want to start a business.
And I I'm so inspired by it.
Oh, thank you.
All the entrepreneurs that I've listened to and kind of felt like I have a little bit of that, and you're able to pull that story and I relate it to it.
So yeah, I just want to say thank you.
Thank you.
That's why we do it.
That's why we get people like Che on the show.
And they all come back because they want to do that.
They want to serve you guys and give you the best advice they can give you.
And and that's it's all about it's all about building.
Um, all right, Alex, so you are so surfing cow.
I'm assuming you're surfer, right?
Yeah, right.
Yeah, okay.
And and it's a skincare brand.
So, like moisturizer, tell me what you sell.
Yeah, okay.
So, first product was the sun bomb.
So, mineral sun protection.
And then I launched a second product in August, which is a moisturizer.
Very, very simple.
All right, I know.
So, surfing makes sense because you're a surfer, right?
You live in near San Diego.
What's the cow part?
Yeah, it's a great question.
So, tallow, beef tallow, which is a really, really great ingredient historically for for many years for skin, is one of the main ingredients.
Wow in both products.
Okay, so the beef tallow, like basically, how do you turn beef tallow into I guess it's soft, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's just, it's just a it's a it's a it's a fat, a beef fat suet, and then you you render it down, render it down, you can deodorize it.
It's uh so similar to our own uh skin barrier that it's very bioavailable for your skin to absorb.
Wow, okay.
So this is really interesting because this is very, it's certainly unusual, right?
It's it's it's skin stuff and sunscreen uh made with beef tallow, which intro we're living in a beef tallow moment, as you know.
Right?
We're at a beef tallow.
Everybody's talking about uh beef tallow this and frying and beef tallow and it can't.
My sister kind of turned me on to tallow, the ingredient.
A few years prior.
I was getting into skincare, and then I was using tallow.
I'm like, dude, I grew up in San Clomeni, small beachtown.
Like I never wore sunscreen.
Yeah.
Because I hated the fit, it was greasy.
I was like, dude, this stuff just is like not great.
A lot of it historically has chemicals in it, mineral sunscreens becoming super popular.
It's like I could make one in the kitchen.
Tell me uh how so you launched this.
Uh when did you launch this?
Yeah, so I started in January, and I was just like, I'm gonna document every step.
And then in April, I launched.
Is it last year of 2025?
Correct, yeah.
Cool.
All right.
Well, tell me a little bit about how the business is doing, right?
You're you you are making it yourself, or you you have a an outside manufacturer.
Last year it was just shy of 74,000.
And then this year we're projected to do uh like 220, 250 with the way January, February, March is has gone so far.
So pretty cool, but I'm still in my house, so I'm like, uh, I guess I can just keep keep going.
I love that I'm looking at your website and you've got the the you break down how much it costs you to make each unit, so uh, which is amazing.
Obviously, you sell it for more than what it costs because you gotta make a profit.
But uh that's really cool.
So, all right, so you are on track to do about 200,000 this year in sales, you think?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, this month, just in March, has been like, you know, it went from like three orders or five orders to like it's like 20, 25 a day.
And and all social media marketing or social media ads, is that how you're doing it?
How you're reaching people?
Yeah.
Wow.
Awesome.
Okay, before we we we dive in further, tell us what your question is, Boris.
My question is I want you guys to close your eyes here for a second.
Okay.
Really?
If you were in my shoes, obviously I've started this business.
Um I'm a solopreneur, if you will, and there's a lot of people saying, maybe do this, do this, do this.
It's a growing skincare brand.
I'm still making doing everything at home.
I'm packing the orders.
I'm Che.
I'm writing the names on the thank you cards, I'm signing them.
What levers would you guys pull?
What would you be focused on right now for this business to ensure that it's grows healthy and I don't lose the soul that people have fallen in love with?
Okay, interesting.
What would you do to make it grow?
Okay, I have some thoughts.
Uh, but Che, thoughts, questions for Alec.
This is really interesting, guy.
I I'm really glad you invited me because learning about these companies is fascinating.
And Alec, I just closed my eyes and I couldn't help but feel jealousy that you're next to a beach and I'm here raising a New Jersey.
But but man, I mean, you've it seems like you're starting to catch lightning in a bottle.
I even when Guy kind of like clarified the revenue number, I was like, wait, like can I can you say that again?
And you just started?
That is pretty wild.
And I'm just wondering what happens if literally 3,000 orders comes your way tomorrow.
Right.
I feel like your neighbors are gonna be really angry and you're gonna be usurping their kitchens.
All my friends make fun of me still, because they'll call me.
They're like, Are you in are you in surfing cow HQ, which is just my house, you know?
And they're like, Are you cooking?
I call, you know, cooking because I make everything myself.
So my initial reaction is like, geez, your number one job right now is to make sure this thing can scale so the wheels don't fall off in the coming months.
If your orders are late, if they're substandard, that's an Alec problem.
That's a surfing cow problem.
That's not a customer problem.
They don't want to know that, oh, so many other folks like this brand that I can't get it anymore, or it takes two weeks to get it.
Um getting the working capital to actually potentially begin professional manufacturing uh of this product.
That's something you're gonna have to figure out and figure out pretty quickly.
Yeah.
I I think I I agree, you can't make this yourself for the in the long term, especially if you're looking at trying to hit 200 grand in sales this year.
That's just not possible.
And I'm sure you're hiring some people part-time to help you, you know, fill jars and label them and ship them out, but it's just not sustainable.
I mean, you've gotta really find somebody who can make them for you.
And what you want to focus on right now is locking down the formula.
Now, you may have already done that, but if you haven't, you really wanna finalize your exact formulation because when you go and work with the quick manufacturer, you know, small changes cost money.
And so you want to really have it, have it locked down as close as possible to what it should be.
It means you need to be testing, and you maybe you've already done some of this shelf life, consistency.
How does it affect, you know, heat?
If you stick it on a counter and you're in a warm house, does it turn into coconut oil liquefies, right?
So you want to kind of look at all of those things, and then you want to find a small to mid-size contract manufacturer.
Now you're very lucky.
You are in California.
There are probably half a dozen of these places in California and Utah and other states that are FDA registered that specialize in natural products that have worked with early stage brands like yours.
And so you really want to start focusing on finding that partner to make your formula to the exact specifications.
Now, in terms of growing the brand in other ways, I think you also have this natural opportunity.
It's surfing cow, you're a surfer.
Um, but I do think you have an opportunity to go and see if you can do collaborations with some other San Diego-based brands like Viore.
You know, huge brands, been on the show before.
Uh Reef, see if they might be open.
I mean, they're bigger brands, but see if they might be open to doing something with you.
And then, you know, down the road, you want to start to look at Whole Foods, right?
Because Whole Foods loves local products.
But I wouldn't jump into huge orders right away.
I would really start with pilot runs working with a co-man.
But that to me, and I think uh, you know, agreeing with Che here, that's gotta be your priority.
Yeah, Alec, I've literally been in your shoes uh before.
And so I'm getting PTSD because you're at that cusp of like this thing really beginning to kind of be a thing.
Hearkening back to my box days, we did not scale early enough, uh, from that point.
And so we were still fulfilling out of my mom's house.
And we had to like undrill her garage door, and there were 40 foot trucks coming down, you know, a residential street.
Um so I I I think, yeah, uh, I mean, getting someone to manufacture this.
Um, and the thing is, like every single successful consumer brand that Guy has had on the show has been in your stage and has had a co-man uh bet on them.
And given this website that I'm looking at and how you've you're your you're your this radical transparency uh uh uh ethos that you espouse, it doesn't shock me that people are giving it a try.
Um I mean, you even put up your your actual fixed Yeah, it's costs.
Yeah, like your fixed costs.
It's like how much LLC filing has cost you.
That's it's pretty wild, man.
You're like the Bridgewater Associates of of the beach.
It's wild.
I just thought it'd be a cool idea when I started.
I'm like, you know, like I've never I've always had these questions of starting a business, and obviously this podcast has been a huge resource, but the manufacturing piece, I guess I've been a little apprehensive because it's like on one side of the coin, I feel like, yeah, I need to really just marry this business, and maybe that does mean taking on outside capital and going to guy, you had mentioned FDA uh regulated facilities.
Um sunscreen is regulated as what they call an OTC drug.
So it's it could be if I don't white label a formula, which I'm I wouldn't, this would be like my own formula.
Um, you know, that could be upwards of $50,000 to $80,000 per skew.
It's a nine to 12 month process.
And that's not that I'm like afraid of doing it, but I guess what I'm saying is I feel like you guys are giving me the maybe validation of like, dude, this thing has legs, go for it.
Because that's sort of my I haven't taken any money since I've done this.
I've tried to just fund it all myself.
And I would love to continue to do that.
But I guess the question is if it sounds like if if I can't continue to just do it myself, is it's like, do I just go for it and find manufacturing if that means taking on outside investment, just so be it.
I I feel very strongly here, guys.
So hopefully it's okay if I jump in.
Um, in everyone I've ever talked to at your stage has asked the same question you're asking us, and as well as you're asking yourself.
I, you know, I I'm only sharing my opinion.
And for every one of my opinions, you'll probably find a counter counterpoint.
I think it's okay to take outside capital because most businesses, the end result and the the quote unquote end result for the founder, most businesses are quite binary.
Like, meaning that this is gonna be really big.
Like we're gonna see surfing cow and Sephora and Whole Foods and everywhere over the next five, 10 years, or we're gonna see it nowhere.
And actually, when you think about the dilution that you'll take from outside capital, you know, if this becomes a billion dollar business, Alec, I think you're not gonna find a very sympathetic Che when you say, Oh my gosh, but I had to sell 15% of a billion dollar business.
I'm like, well, Alec, here's a hundred dollar bill, draw your eye, you know, because it's still so big and it'd be so life-changing.
Yeah, but you know what you don't want to have happen is that it could have been a billion-dollar business, but you didn't want to give up 15% of the company, so it's a zero dollar business today.
Um, so that's why, you know, I always say, don't worry too much about it.
Focus on making this a really big business, and all those other concerns are tertiary.
I I would alter it slightly and say if you do raise money, you wanna, and I think you know, you're not gonna get institutional capital now, you're too small, but you want to get small dollar amounts from people you know.
So I wouldn't raise really, I would not raise more than fifty thousand dollars at most.
And I would try to do it, you know, with small checks from people that you, you know, that you know that believe in this, you know, people who might be able to throw in a thousand bucks.
I I think you want to be really conservative about that, because you know, at the end of the day, you in order to really scale, you're gonna have to have many, many, many more SKUs, right?
Right now you've got just a few, and you're gonna wanna expand out around this sort of idea.
And it may, you know, it it may naturally evolve into something that isn't just uh beef tallow, but it might be, you know, uh you might decide to have a vegan option with uh, you know, avocado oil or something, you know what I mean?
Who knows?
The core here, the foundation here isn't the cow part, it's the surfing part.
That's who you are, that's what this is.
It's about it's about a lifestyle.
I mean, you know, you're gonna need to evolve and grow and build out and create more products, but I do think that if you want to go for some cash to get this these first production runs in, um, that that would be my recommendation.
Okay, sorry.
Uh one word, I might never get this opportunity.
So I have to ask I have to ask it.
Guy, you end every podcast and you say, What do you attribute to hard work and what do you attribute to luck?
And everyone in these CPG brand spaces, when they talk about co-man, they talk about that sort of being this magic sauce.
That said, you guys are both talking about finding a co-man.
And I have spoken with a few, but the question is: is there something that I'm missing here?
Are there certain questions?
It is a gut feeling, or is it just a stroke of luck and someone's gonna be like, yeah, like I heard you own a podcast or I saw your video, and like we want to help you.
Or is it just pick up the phone and just be like, I'm gonna dedicate a month to just finding the right one?
It's uh it's it's both.
You know, if if it's somebody who's like, I really want to work with you, that's a great sign, but they may not have the capacity to do it in the way that you need them to do it.
I mean, really, you want to visit these places and you want to talk to people.
Uh, part of it is instinct, and you will make mistakes, which is why you, you know, we've had we've had brands on the show that work with the same co-man from the very, very beginning to this day, and others that changed for a variety of reasons.
So you really want to test the waters.
You're dating right now, you're not asking anyone to marry you.
And I think that's how you have to approach any relationship you enter into.
And, you know, the the answer will come in the result that you see.
And Alec, I'm guessing, just given what I've heard, um, uh, you know, I I think you're gonna have your own manufactured luck based upon your energy and based upon the fact that you've cooked 200 grand worth of beef tallow sun products in your own kitchen.
I get the feeling you're a hustler out there and and you're gonna find some luck if you keep up that hard work.
I appreciate it.
I actually don't mind it, but I I I agree with you guys.
I need to get out of the kitchen.
Get out of the kitchen, man.
Alec, the brand is called Surfing Cow.
Thanks so much for calling in, man.
Good luck.
Appreciate you guys.
Thank you.
Stay with us because after the break, we'll talk to another founder working to take their business to the next level.
That's after the break.
I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Che Wang, co-founder of Boxed.
And Che, you ready for our next call?
Uh I am ready.
I couldn't be more ready.
All right, let's bring in our next caller.
Uh, welcome to the advice line.
You are on with Che Wang, uh, founder of Box.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Hi, Che.
Hi, guy.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thank you for having me.
My name is Jessica Dubin, and I'm calling from Indio, California, and I'm the founder of TailCinch, which is an equine products brand focused on innovative and sustainable tail care and other essentials for horses.
Awesome.
Welcome, Jessica.
So Indio, not too far from like Palm Springs, Coachella area, right?
Yes, it's right, I'm right across the street from the music festival.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
There you go.
Tell me about Tail Cinch.
What is it?
Yeah, so uh my my hero product are reusable tail ties that I made for polo ponies because I'm myself am a polo player.
And uh when horses are galloping, they naturally swish their tails.
So you want to tie them up to get them out of the way for safety reasons and obviously to keep the flow of the game going.
It can be very dangerous if a mallet gets stuck in a horse tail.
So the status quo is electrical tape, which I ever since I started with polo, I found to be very wasteful.
Um a lot of people just throw it on the ground after the game, they don't pick up after themselves, and it just drove me crazy.
So I thought there had to be a better way to do this that maybe was reusable and also more attractive than uh vinyl electrical tape.
So I created these reusable tail ties.
And they're velcro?
They're velcro and they have uh faux leather strip on the outside for style, and then they have silicone grips on the inside so that they stay in place and don't slide down.
Okay, I love this because this is super niche.
I mean, not to not not, I mean, I mean in the best of ways, right?
It's polo is a game that a tiny fraction of people probably play, but probably a necessary thing for.
So just to clarify, horses' tails are tied with electrical tape?
Like they do they put it directly on the tail of the horse?
Yes.
God, that must be painful to remove it.
It can be, yes, especially on the inside where the uh where the skin is exposed.
So the top of the tail has hair and the bottom is more just skin, and it's not great.
And um, but yeah, it's it's interesting because even though I started this with polo and polo ponies, it turns out that a wide variety of horse owners and equine practitioners have a use case for tying up tails.
And so it just grew out of there.
So now I've got horse owners of all kinds using my products.
So that's okay.
So okay, uh, this is really interesting.
Uh, I have a lot of questions for you, but before we get to Che, um tell me a little bit about your your business.
How what what what are you guys doing in sales right now?
Yeah, so I do uh between 70 to 80,000 a year uh in revenue and I've been in business for four years.
You know, I pretty much hit that number every year, you know, and but I'm not really growing from that.
And I think that sort of brings me to my main problem right now.
Please.
Yeah, to what you're so tell us your question.
Yeah, so I I've seen a lot of traction with paid social and influential outreach.
Um, but both can be expensive and difficult to scale on a limited budget.
So I'm wondering, you know, do you think that getting my products on platforms where horse owners are already shopping, like Chewy or Valley Vet is a worthy brand awareness play, not just a revenue play, even if the margins are super thin, because my product price point isn't that high?
All right, great, great question for Che, because he knows that world very well.
Chay, I want to bring you in.
Any thought first of all, before we answer Jessica's questions, any questions that you might have for our thoughts?
My question, uh, that a clarifying question that I that I had was: it seems like you have been uh, you know, I'm looking at the website now, uh, and it seems like you are expanding outside of just the tail cinch.
Um how has that gone?
Because that will also kind of influence the answer I I I wanted to give you.
Yeah, so I it's gone really well.
And I've gotten great feedback from my expansion products.
Uh, and I've sort of adopted this direction of trying to make what's out there better, because there's not a lot of innovation in horse products.
You know, the the people sort of remake the same thing over and over again.
The brands just like stick to what they know.
And there's there's flaws uh clearly, because I've seen customers come to me and ask if I can fix them.
So um the issue is that, you know, with so many products and and a limited budget, how do you market each one?
Do I pour it all into the hero product and have people coming in for that?
You know, it's spreading my marketing budget across all the products, that's where the challenge is, because I I still hit the same numbers, even though I have more products.
That's fair.
And so with that said, my if if it was just the TLDR uh uh answer would be yes, I do think it is worth it to go on those platforms.
You'll know better than we will in terms of which particular ones, but they could be excellent almost if you view it as a zero kind of cost of acquisition, uh, kind of ways of marketing.
And so as long as you're not losing money, and as long as uh, you know, data will show whether you're cannibalizing your customers or not, it can be an excellent way to get the brand out there, especially if you have other products.
The reason why I asked the question before is that if tail cinch is your only product and the only product that's doing well, then it it probably will start to really cannibalize your base business and just erode your margins.
But if you can get them to say, well, you know what, this tail cinch thing is pretty cool.
What else do they have?
And let me go directly to the website.
I think that could be a very powerful tool.
What you have to actually really worry about is not so much the erosion and margin, but also the working capital component of it.
And so retailers, especially big ones, are going to expect a really long payment cycles.
And so even though you sell that tail cinch, um, you might not get paid for it for half a year.
And I've definitely seen kind of entrepreneurs get bitten by that.
And if you then have to factor that payment, aka kind of finance that payment so you get the money early so you can continue to produce.
What also happens is the factoring companies will also take a cut.
And so your thin margins just became even thinner.
So definitely that true cost of listing that product, that's an exercise you should definitely do.
Yeah.
I'm looking at your products, I'm thinking, wow, this is now you're talking about a much bigger total addressable market.
You're talking about flight protection for ankles and for uh a horse's face and you know, different kinds of products that aren't just for polo players.
Um, and that to me is really interesting.
Is what is the best-selling product that you have right now?
Well, it's still the tail ties.
Um, you know, they definitely do at least 50% of the sales come from the tail ties.
People love them.
I have a lot of repeat customers that come back and buy them again.
They buy them in all the, you know, I have 21 different colors, so uh I have another style of them.
So yeah, those are still the hero, but um, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I agree that that Chewy is worth going on to.
It can help with awareness, but ultimately you you want to change behavior, and that happens at competitions, at through trainers and you know, at the barn or wherever else that you know, people are around horses.
And something you said earlier really struck me, which is there hasn't been a lot of innovation in the things that people buy for their horses.
So I would imagine that most horse owners have to buy certain things.
Like most dog owners buy balls so their dog can play fetch, or uh, you know, they buy uh water bowls that they can carry with them on hikes.
It seems like, based on what you're saying, there's an opportunity to really innovate in these kind of stale products that people have been buying for decades uh that haven't really, no one's really disrupted or changed.
Uh you also sorry, I I to jump in here, guy.
Please you brought up a really great point about dog owners and and uh as well as hor horse riders, and like meaning that um I wonder what the data is on the overlap.
But I would bet that if you own a horse, there's a very high likelihood that you own other pets at home.
And so targeting that audience uh via Chewy and some of the pet specialty platforms might not be the worst idea in the world.
Um to see where that overlap is, that could be that that that was quite intriguing.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's great, great advice.
It's a great, great point.
And there is a large overlap between horse owning and dog owning.
It's kind of they go hand in hand.
So, and even cats too, because barn cats.
So there's a way to connect to them there.
Awesome, awesome idea.
The brand is called Tail Cinch.
Good luck.
Thanks for again for calling.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, horses are it's like a thing that if pe if you are a horse lover rider, like it's it's a huge part of your life.
I I I yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And it's one of those things that unless you're really into it, you would never go after it in terms of a market.
Um, and it might be sneaky big in terms of the ability for them to generate profits because it's such a niche and defensible market.
I I just did a quick, quick search.
The to apparently the total addressable market for just horse products, right?
Just gear and apparel is 20 billion dollars.
Oh my gosh.
And that's not nothing.
I mean, that's significant.
You you you get you know 5% of that, you've got a big business.
So And the thing that I love about it is that you get that audience.
I'm gonna guess out of uh out of that audience, probably nine exactly 99.9% of that audience is not cost conscious.
Exactly.
And that is a market you really want.
Exactly, exactly.
I mean, it's the same for pet owners.
Yeah, I mean, when it comes to your pet, like for most of us, it's it's kind of crazy how money is no object, right?
When it comes to our humans in our life.
But the pets, it's like, yep, whatever they need.
I I bet even if money were an object, guy, I if times got tough in the Raz family, I'm sure you're cutting out your daily coffee run rather than any pet food.
So I, you know, uh that's that's my lived experience as well.
Yep.
All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with Chay Wang, co-founder of Boxed, and let's bring in our next caller.
Let's do it.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Uh my name is Eli Mash.
I am a co-founder of a coffee brand called MacCor Coffee, M-A-K-O-R.
We are an organic coffee brand, and what we specialize is in helping with chronic inflammation.
So our main product is 93% coffee, and then we have a blend of organic cacao and then organic spices that people can get every day within their blend.
Nice.
Well, thanks for calling in Eli.
So it's coffee, and you mix it with uh herbs and spices that are anti-inflammatory.
So you mentioned cacao.
What else do you put in there?
Yeah, we mix it with uh a few other ones.
So we have organic turmeric, uh Ceylon cinnamon, chaga mushroom, uh, cayenne pepper, and then some ginger.
I love that.
And I love that you said Ceylon cinnamon, because I know this cygon cinnamon from Vietnam doesn't have the same anti-inflammatory effects as the Ceylon cinnamon.
Oh, yeah, we we definitely, when we were doing this blend, I mean, when I started this, I had put turmeric in my coffee for like a decade.
Yeah.
Um, and and nobody really enjoyed tasting it but me.
Yeah, it's bitter.
So I was looking for some other ones that could taste well but also have other properties.
No, it's really interesting because I I'm super into this stuff.
I mean, I when I get a cold, I like I I, you know, grate some fresh turmeric and ginger and garlic and put in the cayenne pepper, black pepper, lemon juice, uh honey, and hot water, and it knocks it out every time, almost every time.
If I do it right when it's starting.
A really cool idea.
Um, how did you uh how'd you come up with it?
So, like I said, I'd been to putting turmeric in my coffee for quite some time.
My parents are holistic folks.
I grew up in a in a family of people who really thought of whole food as nutrition.
Um, so I had thought, hey, this is something I do every day.
How else can people use uh spices that don't get normally?
And how can they actually do it in a way they're not gonna forget about?
You forget about your multivitamins, you forget about other things.
What can we do to help people uh every single day and something they won't forget about?
And coffee's a good way.
I love this idea.
It's really cool.
So you start, and is this your full-time job now?
Is this what you're focused on?
Oh, I wish I uh um I have I have three kids.
I have uh three little girls in my family.
So um as we're as we're raising them and as I'm building the business, I have a I have a full-time job as in in software sales as well.
So this is really nice weekends, and we have a coal manufacturer that can do all the activities that you know I don't have time to do right now.
And you're selling on your website entirely right now, right?
So actually we've been selling on a website for a little over a year now.
Um and we are in a local uh local store in Minneapolis with uh 11 stores, and we're recently uh got into another one with 30 stores.
So we'll be in about 40 doors by the end uh by middle of this year.
Nice.
And and I'm looking at your bag, is it clear?
Does it make it clear right up front what this is and why this is different?
You know, we could do a better job of that, I think.
I mean, we have the ingredients, think of like the Rx bar, right?
We have the ingredients all on the front.
Yep.
On our website, we do a you know a much better job, but that is one of the challenges, definitely when you're on the retail shelf, explaining things quickly.
And how are you doing in sales?
So I I think we're, you know, we're doing pretty well.
Um, so we we run a subscription business and uh, you know, and and in a purchase, you know, one-time business.
We have about 300 people who subscribe every month.
Um, this year we're on track to do between 200 and 300,000, um, with 95% of it being online.
Okay.
Uh and what is your question for us?
What's your what's your challenge?
Oh, so yeah, I'm I I have many.
I think um, but the the question I have for you guys, and and is around, you know, when we have this blend, what happens with these spices, they're finer ingredients, right?
So when people are going in and they're brewing the coffee, you know, the cacao can even melt a little bit.
And what it does is it it tends to brew slower.
So when you get to like that six cups, if you don't, you know, if you're not careful with the right filters, it can overflow.
And if it overflows, people never come back, right?
So we're trying to balance this uh really healthy coffee and and having it with enough ingredients that actually helps and adds benefits, the same time being able to have this more of a general population where you don't need to think about that at all.
So it doesn't, it's designed to be brewed how how poor you can brew it as any as a normal coffee, you know, French press, Keurig, uh, Chemex, and a regular coffee maker.
Um but when you do have a regular coffee maker, if you get above six cups, it can overflow if you're not using the right, the right uh uh the right.
All right, I want to bring Che in uh Che.
Um interesting.
I don't know, I are you a coffee drinker?
I I am.
Uh I've dialed it back a little bit.
Um, but I I like this because this gives me an excuse to drink more.
For sure.
Yeah.
Uh, you know.
Um to your exact question, it reminds me, I'm not saying this is the right answer, but it reminds me of an investor of ours that asked me, Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?
And you know that in order for the blend to be to your standard, Eli, you know it needs to be a certain degree of the blend.
Um, but actually for it to have big uses like six plus cups, um, hello, offices, that you might need to modify uh kind of the formula a little bit.
That is a guttryal decision that you'll have to make yourself that you'll have to live with uh as an entrepreneur and as kind of the um as as the parent of this brand, uh, this is basically your fourth child, Eli.
But from my opinion, you probably could modify it for that kind of bigger brew, because I see coffee offices being big, a big distribution point for this product.
The reason why I say that is I used to always laugh like when we had like people drinking Gatorade or like you know, like uh vitamin water in the office.
I'm like, oh wow, it's a real workout answering these emails.
You know, you better hydrate.
But the reality is like we're all in the office and we want to do a little bit of good to our bodies.
Um so I can see like the button in front of you saying, Do you want the regular coffee or the anti-inflammatory one?
I could see a lot of people pushing that other button.
Yeah.
Um, so that's why I think it could be a big distribution point that would get them to then say, in my home, yeah, I quite like that coffee brand.
What was it called again?
Maybe I'll sign up for my house as well.
That's right.
You know, I have a couple questions, right?
Um coffee, you you extract the the flavor based on the in part based on the grind, right?
If it sounds like you, you know, you want to scale up, but part of the challenge is that if people brew it's if it just overflows a a grittier grind, if a less fine grind, it's you know, it's a drip machine, whatever it might be, or a percolator.
Um can you I'm assuming that with the um other ingredients, right?
The turmeric and the cinnamon, the ginger, it's powderized.
And so that also helps with the extraction.
But is there a way to like have tiny grinds like freeze-dried grinds that are slightly bigger that still still bring out that same extraction of of what nutrients that you know you want people to ingest?
It's it's a really good question.
We've we've, you know, when we look at suppliers that have all the certifications we need, we haven't been able to find that yet at our size and scale.
We'd have to do all that grinding ourselves, um, which is you know it takes a lot of time.
But it's definitely a a a a conversation though to be had and be thought through for sure.
I mean, if you grind cinnamon sticks to uh slightly bigger pieces, does it extract the same way?
Do you get the same flavor?
You will get less of it.
It seems like that's quite a challenge, but with challenges come sustainable moats.
If you're able to have that proprietary grind, uh that could be really interesting.
Cause anyone who's gonna copy this, um, and there will be people that copy this, will have to figure out uh and walk through the same difficult steps that that you'll walk through.
Oh, uh you know, it's it's it is interesting, right?
Because you can, you know, to your guy's point, there's a lot of different thoughts and things I'm thinking about all the time.
And then it's also around storytelling, right?
And maybe the the bug is actually a feature too.
Now, Che, to your point, it can't go in offices that way unless you're using a French press or a Kierg or whatnot.
But how much do you want to keep your community right and grow with that feature you have versus um to your point changing?
I think you've you've answered the question several ways, but that's how I think through this.
Yeah.
You know, I I wonder whether you can try something, and and you might be doing it.
I don't see it on the package, but literally just say best brewed in a French press.
You know, I know most people don't, you know, they probably use trip machines, but while you're trying to formulate something that would because I down the road, you want this to be in K cups, right?
Yeah.
Uh and so, and that's a technology challenge, which I think is probably a challenge you will figure out how to solve, whether it's freeze-dry using freeze-dried ginger and turmeric that you can then grind to the same, you know, size as the coffee, um, you know, uh that enable the same extraction or whatever it is.
But in the meantime, I wonder if it if if you do something like that, you know, best brewed in a French press are pour over.
Yeah.
Uh, could it be different formats to that point?
Like meaning that a different formulation for larger coffee machines, like drip coffee machines.
And you you it seems like you're very transparent with the uh ingredients as well.
So it's like, you know, the real hardcore users that are like, give me all the anti-inflammation I can get.
Well, you we can't really offer that experience in a drip machine.
Um those folks will naturally, because they're hardcore about it, they will naturally gravitate towards the pour over or the other kind of ways of of baking that coffee.
You know, that could be an avenue to explore.
I actually don't know.
I haven't thought about that.
It's a really good idea.
I mean, that's why you're here, Eli.
Why when you think about the c the office space itself, you're right, you know, it does work in a drip machine up to four or five cups, which is fine for most, right?
But if you go to the office, you need 30 cups, right?
And in that case, you're right, maybe it is just a less potent one that allows it to go through.
That's a very interesting point.
And you know what?
Like uh while we're riffing here, um, like office coffee is like a knife fight of an industry.
Everyone wants to sell coffee to offices because they become like annuities.
Like, you know, once you're in there, everyone's happy.
The fastest way for uh team members to burn down the office is to say we're out of coffee or the coffee machine is broken.
So once you're in there, you're in there, and the office manager does not want to mess with it.
And so I wonder there might be some really fast, scalable ways for you to get real distribution through that channel.
Um, because if you go to some of these bigger ones and you're like, hey, here's an innovation that we think will resonate with your offices, they might say great, because we're we're done with just selling regular coffee.
Like we're looking for innovation in coffee.
Do you know, you know what?
Just I just had a thought?
We did an episode recently on Justin's nut butter, which became uh, you know, it was sold to Hormel for almost 300 million dollars.
And that was a peanut butter brand.
And it wasn't nothing was happening.
It wasn't popping off the shelves.
It, you know, it was it was another peanut butter brand and people weren't noticing it.
What changed the innovation that that really helped that brand blow up was do you know what I'm talking about?
I know, I think I know what you're talking about.
Yeah, yeah.
The pouches.
Yeah, yeah.
The pouches they put peanut butter in a single use pouch where you could bring it on a bike ride or a hike.
And that is what completely turned that brand around.
And I'm I'm looking at this product, I'm thinking, well, could you do something in addition to what you're making, right?
The beans, the whole beans in the grind, like a single serve, freeze-dried coffee pack that also has, you know, let's say 10% of it is the freeze-dried herbs and spy or spices in there.
That is an instant version of this, a single use, instant version of this for people to take on the go, camping, etc., see if if people respond to that.
Um just an idea, but I'm just thinking about Justin's nut butter and the pouches.
Yeah.
Guys, sorry, I was I was smiling the entire time you were talking about Justin's because I remember being in line at Whole Foods and seeing pouched peanut butter.
I'm like, okay, consumer package goods has really jumped a shark.
Right.
Who has thought, you know, but like months later, I was on a hike at a retreat and I was starving and someone had these pouches.
I was like, okay, give me give me one of those pouches.
Give me one of those pouches.
And I was like, this is brilliant.
It's protecting.
So it doesn't shock you.
Exactly.
It's like a very good way to trial things as well.
It's a good way to trial things to let people taste the, you know, this, and it's anti-inflammatory.
And it's so anyway, just some thoughts.
It's a it's very cool.
I think you have an opportunity to, I mean, you know to scale this, you gotta make it frictionless.
And if you can figure it out, which I think you could, uh, that could be a game changer.
Appreciate that.
Eli, if I'm walking through Whole Foods and I see pouches of your coffee, I don't know where you got the idea.
You're gonna buy it.
You're going thousands by a commission check for this idea, Eli.
Oh, you guys are on the list.
You're on the list of commissioned commissioners.
Lifetime supply of my core coffee.
Uh Eli, thanks so much for calling in my core coffee.
Good luck.
Thank you so much, guys.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Um, Chay, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question that I ask all of our guests to come on come back on the show, which is if you could take all the things that you've learned now as a super experienced entrepreneur, you've been through highs and lows, and you scaled a company to unimaginable heights, and you could go back to you know, to you when you started out, you know, in 2013 and say, hey, Chay, here's what you need to know.
What would you say?
I I would tell myself that it's a life you chose to be an entrepreneur, and the reward is the journey.
And I know that sounds a bit cliche, but time and time and again, you know what, what we experienced today, guy, it's it's every entrepreneur experiences the same thing.
Yes.
It's problem after problem.
If we had like another two hours, these folks today could have brought on another 20 challenges that they had this morning.
And it gets tough, it gets lonely, it gets stressful.
But as I've walked the path for now almost two decades, I I enjoy it.
I think you're gonna find me hopefully back on the show when I'm 75 with a new company, you know, because I think solving problems and my thing is is affecting people in a good way and helping people in a good way as well.
Yeah.
So if we took that time machine, I would say, listen, you're gonna have ups, you're gonna have downs, but enjoy the ride because it's gonna be worth it.
And I genuinely feel that way today.
That's great advice.
That's Box co-founder Che Wang.
Che, thanks so much for uh for joining me today.
Thanks, guy.
And by the way, if you haven't heard Che's original how I built this episode, you've got to go back and check it out.
You can find a link to it in the show notes.
And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview.
I remember I was driving home from a meeting in New York, and one of the folks that quit his six-figure paying job to join the dream and sit in my garage.
Called and said, dude, I refreshed the page over and over.
It's not broken.
We got zero orders today.
Oh, wow.
This dropped down to zero two days in a row.
And he was like, dude, I I risk my livelihood to do this.
Are you sure this is still gonna work?
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter.
You can sign up for it for free at guy's.com or on Substack.
And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them.
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Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well.
This episode was produced by Ramel Wood with music composed by Ramtina Rablui.
It was edited by John Isabella.
Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez.
Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Carrie Thompson, Catherine Seifer, Neva Grant, Nor Gill, and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Roz, and you've been listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.