# Scaling AI Revenue: Lessons from ElevenLabs CRO Carlos Reyner

**Podcast:** The Twenty Minute VC (20VC): Venture Capital | Startup Funding | The Pitch
**Published:** 2026-04-11

## Transcript

We had two employees that in February Had already achieved the entire full year quarter.
Customer success needs to be a money generation function for the business.
The role of a CRO is fundamentally thinking about like not the revenues today, but the revenues of tomorrow.
Let's do the things that no one is doing.
That is what makes me a passion.
And that is what a good CRO, I think, needs to be doing because we're not here to do easy stuff.
It's like the fastest product in terms of revenues that we've ever had.
It's just insane.
If you want to do something, budget is never going to be a problem.
This is 20 VC with me, Harry Stebbins, and I'm so excited to welcome a dear friend Carlos Reyner.
Carles is the CRO at Eleven Labs, one of the fastest growing companies on the planet.
He was also one of the first investors there.
He scaled the revenue org from zero to over 350 million in ARR.
This is a masterclass in scaling sales in an AI first world.
On top of that, Carles is also an incredible investor with his own solo GP fund Baobab Ventures, which is back the lights of Revolute and of course Eleven Labs in the early days.
But before we dive into the show today, a quick shout out to a company I've been genuinely blown away by and have been tracking closely, ROX.
I've been watching this team closely and the speed they're operating at and the level of applied AI talent they've assembled.
It's honestly remarkable.
ROX is pioneering revenue agents for the global 2000, plugged into your data warehouse and CRM and delivering board level ROI in just 90 days.
These sales and revenue agents handle the end-to-end sales process for large enterprises from research prep to deal risk, outreach, and opportunity management.
So sellers spend more time with customers and less time in tools.
This isn't another productivity app.
Christ, we've all had enough of those.
Rocks gives reps a single interface on top of their GTM stack, powered by a knowledge graph across your internal and external data.
So if you want to boost AE productivity, increase revenue per rep, and consolidate your stack, try rocks at rocks.com/slash sign up.
And speaking of great companies, we have to talk about Monaco.
For years I've watched some of the best founders and early go-to-market teams struggle with sales.
Too many CRMs, too many point solutions, too much manual work.
Well that changes with Monaco.
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Monaco's agents automatically build and score your entire TAM, lay it in real-time signals, create and run outbound sequences, schedule calls, and record and transcribe meetings.
Your pipeline practically manages itself.
Monaco creates reminders, draws follow-up emails for you, and keeps deals moving forward.
So that means more meetings, higher conversion rates, and faster revenue growth.
If you're an early stage startup, tired of duct taping sales tools together and looking to grow revenue faster, check out Monaco at Monaco.com.
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Carlos, listen, I know a show is successful when I get friends of mine outside of tech be like, oh, love the clip with Carlos.
And I'm like, really?
And they're like, I never thought that quota and sales comp would be so interesting.
And I'm like, thank you, Sarah.
I had no idea you were interested in it.
So it was such a successful show.
I thought we had to do a round two.
Thank you for joining me, man.
Thank you for inviting me.
This is great.
I'm happy people were interested in like sales.
Sales and sales comp, according to that clip, which again now it's like five million plus views, which is insane.
Dude, I actually wanted to start on you have now kind of led the way in a new CRO charge, I think.
Eleven Labs is probably one of the most exciting companies on the planet, USCRO there.
Are a generation of CROs being left behind?
Some of them, yes.
But I think I think it's fundamentally that like the market has changed.
The way that we build companies today has completely evolved.
We can do deals much quicker.
But also, like for me, the key item is like a deal can be done.
You can hire teams that like have a ton of experience, but how do you think beyond a single deal and think about like distribution entirely?
And I think that's what we're thinking, like what we were actually missing in many ways.
Like, yes, it's great to do business development, it's great to do like think about affiliates.
How do you think about much more on a strategic level, but also like able to execute?
Those are the key components.
How do you embed AI in your entire distribution component so that you're able to actually do more with less?
What do you mean by that?
Is that like simply uh using artisan qualified Monaco and having like AI SDRs do outbound for you?
No, that doesn't work.
Good.
Glad I suggested that.
It doesn't work like lucky you're not hiring me, huh?
I mean, dodgy start the interview.
No, you're fine.
No, but it's it's like I've tried a very large number of like AI go to market tools, and they don't work.
And they don't work because they see everything as a transaction.
The point is like, so if I was building it, and hopefully, like some people will be able to actually use this, if I was building an AI, like agentic platform for sales, right?
I'll be like, okay, let's actually understand each one of the core potential leads.
What do they prefer?
Do they prefer to actually be reached out over email?
Do they prefer to actually attend events?
Do they prefer to actually have a phone call?
And you can try to map some of those components, but what people put on LinkedIn and social media.
That is the most fundamental element.
But what we're actually seeing on the AISDR front is that the majority of these tools track everyone as if they actually want to receive a message.
And people hate it.
And you see, like the response rates on outbound emails has dropped to the lowest at of any point in time.
It's like less than 0.01%.
Like people getting messages on LinkedIn is like it's has skyrocketed.
And you can perceive that that is actually a transactional email must send to everyone, or it was generated by AI.
That doesn't work.
So outbound is dead.
Outbound is dead unless you do it with humans, or unless you do it humanly.
And that's fundamentally the key item.
I can tell you like at 11 Labs, I spent the past two years plus trying to convince the team to actually hire engineers to actually help me build AI agents for revenue for sales.
And it was only last year that actually like they were like, okay, let's do it.
So we end up hiring people, and we end up building AI SDR that handles inbounds, super good results.
I have now an AI proposals manager that like scans the web for RFPs and RFIs and then proposes scores and proposes things.
I have like an AI custom success manager that fundamentally leaves in the back in an email and essentially proposes emails, looks at all of the data of a single customer, all of the pricing tiers and everything that we have in the contract, and then proactively proposes things.
So when my customer success manager goes in the morning to check the emails, that person has a number of like drafts that DAE has created.
And then that person can change those drafts to put it out there and to send it back.
We store what we actually sent and what it was originally created and what are the responses are to actually fine-tune.
So each one of the customers ends up getting a slightly different message with a slightly different tone.
And if they speak other languages, then it's a completely different language.
That works.
And that has closed deals for us already.
We generate money from that AI customer success manager fundamentally because it is humanly, right?
It's human if it's specific as human.
So we're cutting the size of our team.
If we can do so much with these different AI agents, our sales teams of the future are gonna be dramatically less.
I think like we will end up seeing the fact that like people are becoming much more efficient.
I think like the goal for me at 11 labs is like 50% improvement in productivity.
That's the one that I want to do because then it means that I can I can hire less people.
I prefer to manage a smaller team that gets super well compensated.
Any app cells, any contracts that the AI agent ends up closing, I will pay those commissions as if like a human actually closed it.
And I'm very happy with that.
But also that means that like the people that we want to retain in half are gonna be extremely top talent that are performing at 11 that no one else is performing.
That has a consequence.
That is that instead of actually doubling my team or doing a 5x or doing whatever it is over the next like two years, I end up hiding less people.
But they're very concentrated.
You you mentioned the word commissions there.
I'm really intrigued.
Like we see like open AI don't have commissions.
It's like here's your salary and then here's your equity.
Often people say salespeople are coin operated.
You said that actually last time you have a 20x quota, which is a lot higher than anyone else.
We interviewed the the head of sales at Clay recently, and they said there's a six to eight.
Post 20, what is the commission structure?
And how do you advise me as a founder on how to set the commission structure?
I mean, I can tell you, like, we had two employees that in February had already achieved the entire full-year quota.
I put a message in Slack saying these two people have reached the monthly monthly of uh sales at 11 labs because in two months already like the their quota.
I mean this in the nicest way.
Did you not massively miss that quota then?
I don't think so.
It's like I think you need to put a quota that is challenging but also fair.
And if people miss it fundamentally because it's too high, then you need to do the right thing and then lower it or compensate them correctly.
But also, good salespeople, they want to be the best ones.
They want to actually they're moved by the coin.
They're moved by the fact that like like a big challenge ahead of them.
If you don't put that challenge, they're just gonna be like slacking.
They're just not, you're not gonna get the best out of it.
And I think for me, that's the key item.
It's like we say, like, hey, you reach your quota 100%, fantastic.
You and then you start unlocking accelerators to the point that like I'm very happy.
Like, if we sign a million-dollar commission check, I'm the happiest person in life.
Fundamentally, because like that person did so much money for the business and for our shareholders and for the rest of the company, that is an absolute no-brainer.
Again, like for me, it's like for every one million dollars in revenues that any single person signs, and I don't care if it comes from like the SDR, the accounting exec, the CSM, or it's an engineer that went all in and then managed to get a contract.
Every single million has 33 million dollars in extra valuation for the company.
If you put it that way, it's a benefit for everything.
Some people get more equity on the engineering side, great, they deserve it because they don't get commissions.
Fantastic, they were popping up the entire value of their stock.
When you get the accelerators, how do you advise me on how to charge the accelerators?
It depends.
Like, so the way we do it, and I think it's fair, is like for every single extra year, you get another 25% extra commission on top of it.
We start like 5% commission on any sell anything that you sell, and then we have the accelerators after your quota, that is.
No, that is including in your quota, and then after your quota, yes, uh, additional, like, and we have like a 1.1x, 1.2x, 1.3x, 1.5x, and so on, right?
So the more you keep selling above your quota, then you uh hit those accelerators, but then we have like accelerators for or spiffs specifically for for individual products.
So if we are incentivizing one product, because a quarter we want to incentivize that product, then we will put an accelerator or a specific spiff for that specific product, and then people even are more motivated on that front.
Do you find that always works?
No, no, it's easy to get hooked on spiffs or like specific incentives and lose the entire the entire side of what you're trying to do.
If you put too many accelerators, if you put too many incentives in one place, you create the wrong behavior, which is people try to sell whatever it is to actually unlock it.
For instance, like we don't pay commissions on pilots.
Because why?
Like it's not adding to our valuation as a company.
And because it's not adding to our valuation as a company, the engineers, the researchers, the ops people, the people, no one is actually getting a boost in their equity.
Then why should we pay it?
Let's do the right thing and let's do the complex thing, which is like let's do the pilot if needed.
Let's convince the customer that the metrics are there and we're doing it really well.
And then on top of that, once we sign an gearly contract or a two-year contract, then we pay you the commission.
Do you pay on retention and expansion?
Yes.
So like first 12 months, you can close a deal, it doesn't really matter $50,000 or a million dollars or $10 million, whatever you want.
And then that gets expanded over the next 12 months, you will get commissions.
Great.
And you can hit accelerators with that and so on.
If it's a strategic account and we have designation of what is a strategic account, so for instance, like the top 20 or 30 accounts in a given market, depending on how big the market is, fundamentally, then you will unlock commission for two years.
And we can change it if needed, right?
But at a practical level, we've found that that's like the fairest way.
I will never forget one of the great CRROs saying to me on the show, you do not ever want your farmer going against someone else's hunter.
Meaning you're kind of cushy, but super nice CS enablement.
Hey, like let's get champions in your company against someone else's all-star hunter who is there to close your business.
How do you feel about that?
True?
And then how do you think about then retaining the hunter on the account?
The hunters are important.
Very important.
Specifically when you think about distribution, you think about like outbounds, inbounds, you think about like a lot of different pieces, right?
But at the same time, a hunter that is not well managed will create more damage than actually like opportunities.
So let's say, for instance, you're trying to close a company that has multiple company multiple subcompanies.
It's the big holding company, we can use any name you would want, right?
And then you have a hunter that essentially tries to go to each one of them, but doesn't do it in a very structured way, like trying to align what are the incentives for this big account.
Then fundamentally you end up having discrepancies on pricing, you end up having discrepancies for like what is the actual like the value for them, and then each one of them discrepancies ends up coming back to hunt you down essentially when you try to renew the contract or the other forms.
It is important to have them, but at the same time you need to have like them in check together with the customer success.
I actually am a big believer of customer success.
I don't believe customer success as a satisfaction or happiness moment for customers.
No, it's like customer success needs to be a money generation function for the business that it works for the customer, but also works for the business to incentivize growth, expansion, cross sets.
What do you mean by that then?
Because I had Chris Dagnan on the show who's like one of the all-time great CROs, Snowflake, you know, zero to four billion or whatever it was.
And he's like, CS is complete bullshit.
Complete bullshit.
You have professional services, pay for it and we'll make you great.
To what extent do you agree, or do you think customer success is in the world where like Snowflake grew up, like that made sense.
In the world we are in today with AI, that doesn't make any sense.
Because fundamentally, like anyone can spin up a competitor of your product in the next two days.
So fundamentally, like your customer success, you need to actually re like go as deep as you can as early as possible and try to close it as soon as possible, a single contract, and then your customer success is the one that actually will help you expand it quickly and retain the customer.
So if it becomes like services business only, where you're charging for every single penny, then you become a transaction.
You're not building a community, you're not retaining of the long term.
You should be incentivizing them to actually like do both things community trust and also like incentivize it the long term.
So that's why like I am I'm in favor of charging for like services, but in not all the cases it makes sense.
The game has changed.
Where else has the game changed?
Where else are old school CRs out of date?
In general, like one single market, going one market at a time, it doesn't work.
Traditional BCs, like the traditional method has been like, oh, you open one market, you go deep, you win the accounts, you show like the value, then you go to the next one, and then you go to the next one, and so on.
And there's like the bullshit advice that like BCs have been giving like for many years.
And I know like now it's changing fundamentally because, like, hey, like the reality is like if you're gonna have a hundred competitors in the next like month because you're starting to get some traction, or because of whatever reason, or everyone is thinking about the same problem, then going deep, then go opening one market after the other one after the other one, instead of actually parallelizing and trying to do multiple bets at the same time, then it's just counterintuitive.
Is that only enabled by a PLG motion though?
Like a P L G motion allows you to do multiple markets at the same time much easier because if you have enterprise motion, you need you need everything from SDRs to AEs to CS in that place.
Not really.
So for instance, like one of the, and and I know like this is gonna be controversial, but like I think all of the tech startups are afraid to actually hire someone that has had 20 years' experience, 25 years' experience.
And the excuse that they use is like the person is not gonna fit the business.
And I think it's bullshit.
I think it's full wrong.
Fundamentally, someone has 20 years experience in sales and has been selling for the past 10 years to the same like financial services firms in the city or in the US has so much wealth, so much knowledge that it can propel the entire business.
Now the question is like, not all of them are gonna fit your business, but a good portion of them, if they're still hungry and they still want to actually do something that is meaningful, they're gonna fit really well.
Those type of profiles will shorten your sales cycles because they will join and be like, okay, now I know the product really well.
I have I know the vision, I know how to properly like pitch it.
Let me call off my friends that have been interacting and all of my stakeholders that have been interacting for the past 10 years, 20 years.
Now we just go directly to the C level.
Dude, is that not a massive misalignment of cultures?
When you think about like the super young, hungry raps, and then you'll bring in 50-year-old Simon who's been selling into the city financial services for years?
The biggest example is like Google in the early days.
You have like Sergey Bean and Larry Page together with Eric Schmidt.
That's amazing.
A guy that had ton of experience, was really successful, ended up coming in, and magic happened.
I think fundamentally, like both parties want to make it work.
It can happen.
But you need to make it work.
And you need to hire the right people that will have like will be in the same brainwave as you are.
Do you worry that people pull eleven labs so much out of your hand that anyone could sell it?
No.
I don't think it's that easy to sell, especially in this environment.
Of course, I think if you have a big brand like an open AI or like an anthropic or 11 labs, it's easier a little bit.
And the nice thing about this being around too is I can push back more in the moment.
You can't have a 20x quota and say it's not easy to sell.
You can't have that much better people than everyone else.
I think you can.
I think your people are not, I love you, dude, but your people are not four X better, four X than everyone else in market.
I do 100% believe that our people are like 4X better, like without thinking twice.
And I would take them to war.
I will go with what to war with them, every single one of them.
It's because like we are tough on them, but also like they're tough on us.
Like they give us the feedback, the difficult feedback, and I get it every single day.
And I'm happy that they give me the right the tough feedback.
Because what we're trying to do here, and I've always believed and grew up with the idea of like we're trying to find the ground truth.
And what the ground truth means, like today means X, where it means something else, and the following day will mean something else.
So if you don't have people that are constantly challenging you and constantly thinking beyond what the actually is happening today, you're not gonna be able to survive.
And those are the people that we hire.
Where are people challenging you where you don't have an answer?
Which market should we be opening?
How deep should we go into like some of the structured changes?
Like the company is going growing very quickly.
Do we need a global accounts team?
So I'm already thinking about that global accounts team.
When do we implement it?
How do we implement it?
How do we motivate people?
Should it be 20x?
Should it be something else?
Which product should we be selling?
Should we be selling to competitors?
Should we be selling to resellers?
So there is all of those things, like the team challenges every single day.
And I love it because it's intellectually is stimulating, but also because it forces the entire business to rethink our position every single day.
So you would advise founders today to go to as many markets as possible as soon as possible?
Not as many markets as possible.
I think like you need to map out and have a reasoning and a thesis of why that market so that you cannot refer to that and understand whether the market conditions have changed, and then you have to actually like uh evolve your your thesis.
But for me, this is like go to market is similar to like investing in venture capital, right?
You need to test like a hundred things to actually be able to find like the three, four, five, six things that actually perform and do really well.
We do the same in venture.
We invest in companies, knowing and believing that all of them are gonna work and all of them can be like a billion or trillion dollar company, and then we realize like shit, it not worked, but I still have like three or four or five that are gonna be working really well.
Go to market is exactly the same thing.
Like test as many things as you can, not only in the opening markets, but also like, do you need to try like self-service?
Do you need to try like working with resellers, like with partners with the cloud ecosystem, like with a grants program, with an affiliates program?
There's so many things.
And opening markets is one of those ones.
What did you test that didn't work and what did you learn?
At 11, I've tested like endless, endless amounts of things, and I absolutely love it.
For instance like media entertainment in the beginning did not work for us.
It just didn't what is media and entertainment mean so big brands like big uh entertainment studios and the thesis was like they're generating so much content we should be able to actually sell to them and make a ton of money on this and the reality was that like yes they do make a lot of content but when you have an industry that essentially like is very heavily influenced by the public the audience the quality you need to produce events all of that stuff then potentially the industry might not be ready for technology that you're trying to sell that was a big learning and we spent months and months and months trying to break into the entertainment industry to realize that like we were not growing as fast as we wanted.
So we ended up switching and having another ICP was like okay let's work with media creation platforms.
That worked really well for us and then we ended up saying like hey actually the wall is moving we had a thesis around like the world is moving towards agent systems how do we also bring a product to market that fits really well in the agentic world and we had a vision on that.
So we ended up working on that and today AI agents, it's absolutely fantastically huge for us.
Fundamentally, because we had the vision, we bet, we went early, we started working with partnering with like some companies, and that planned out really well.
You said the words not growing as fast as you wanted.
Now you're an investor on the other side of the table.
You've seen how fast a company can grow with 11 labs.
You've also seen a word revolution to be fair, to edge cases to be fair.
But that's our business.
Like that that is the business adventure.
My favorite thing with VCs is when you get other VCs be like, I don't know if Carl S is very good because like if you actually take out 11 labs and revolute, he's not that good.
And you're like, yeah, one of them for unicorns.
That's fine.
Like you know, okay, sure.
But my point is, has it changed how you think about attractiveness in company growth?
I don't know.
I think you still need to have companies that grow from one to four or from zero to one, and it takes them like 18 months to get there.
And I think that's actually not bad.
It's like just means like you need to incentivize the portfolio to be able to actually like iterate and experiment as much as they can.
Because we don't know what's gonna work.
And I think it is us, like us still, even with new products that like I'm I'm heading and I'm trying to get to market.
I truly don't know how we're gonna price it.
I truly don't know if it's gonna work out.
I'm just trying to iterate.
Is it gonna take us a little bit longer to get to like the first million and the first five million and the first 10 million?
Fine, we have the ability, but we need to iterate.
And I think it's exactly the same.
At 11 labs, we have like a business that grows extremely quickly, like we like smashing it, all of that stuff.
But at the same time, we have like brand new bets, like are not generating any revenue.
And that's great.
But it's bets that we're doing for next year.
So I think like the idea is.
What's the biggest bet you've got today that's not generating revenue?
So we we have we're generating a good amount of revenue, but like government work, fundamentally it's just like it's a tiny portion of it.
And I think that's okay because like the role of a CRO is fundamentally thinking about like not the revenues today, but the revenues of tomorrow.
I'm already thinking, like all of this quota I've already been thinking of like how do we put the pieces together so that the 11 labs next year grows even faster than this year?
Because I know this year we'll survive the numbers.
I have the right team, we're gonna continue hiring.
We have like the motion that we set up for last year, it's gonna grow real well.
How am I doing it for next year, being very creative so that I can start putting the right bets?
That's what being my quota this year.
You'll hit a billion in revenue by the end of the year.
Who knows?
I I would love to I would love to hit a billion dollars in revenues by the end of the year.
We have some targets internally.
If we were creative, we can do it.
If not, it will be a little bit later.
That's fine.
That's absolutely fine.
Any big lessons on forecasting?
It's freaking hard to do.
It's just impossible.
We forecast and then we realize usually that like we've like we we would just like But that's different.
Traditional sales leaders on the show for the last three or four years, because I've done 2000, uh have been like, oh, I can pretty much get there to to three to five percent.
Yes.
I'm like, wow, and now impossible and clear.
But it's impossible if you think about it from an experimentation perspective.
And I always tell my team, like, I want us to test as many things as possible.
I I only need one of those ones to work really well to give me another hundred million dollars in revenues or two hundred or three hundred dollars.
And so when you say things, do you mean like channels, like affiliates, like partners, like referrals, or do you mean like products?
Channels, products, ideas, should we be pitching services?
And I was like in a in a meeting with a CEO of an airline very recently in in uh a few days back, and we were talking about like agents and all of that stuff, and then at some point he's like, But Carlos, it's like everyone keeps pitching me.
I get over a hundred pitches every week of pitch like companies doing like customer support.
I don't want to have another another pitch on that.
And I was like, and you're 100% right, and I hate it.
Like, absolutely don't get me wrong.
We do it and we do it really fucking well, but at the same time, it's boring.
The majority of companies will start with the bottom line optimization.
So, what's boring?
Customer support?
Customer support optimization for me is like, yes, your your mindset is like, yeah, I want to automate, increase a bunch of percentage points, my profitability.
So that's what I'm focusing on.
And that's great.
Don't get me wrong, it is fantastic.
What I'm actually interested is like, how do we figure out a way to partner with a company and create a lapse area?
So it's company X laps so that we can figure out a way for them to generate new revenue opportunities for them.
That's what actually makes me a passion.
But that's we have to prove that that is the right thing.
So that is one of the experiments.
And I'm spending a lot of time these days on like how do we prove that the idea of labs for companies where we essentially are their consultants and help them build those agents that will generate top line revenue with new ideas, new products, is actually something that we can scale and generate like hundreds of millions.
How do you think about the trade-off between doing that where it's maybe a little bit more low margin given the fact that it's quite hands-on?
I'm thinking like British Airways Labs, where you have amazing voice agents who call you up and are very personalized, give you tips on how to enjoy New York with your wife.
Yeah, great, super nice idea.
May get more money from it, boom.
Versus actually we can do an avatars and we can compete with all the avatar companies, higher margin, a very adjacent product.
I don't know.
I think like I would rather do things that are actually much more complex than like the ones that are actually like less complex.
I think we're here as like uh startups and VCs to do the difficult things.
I don't believe in like doing the short path, like things that are actually like are much easier.
If someone is doing it and someone is like super good, maybe we should be buying the company.
Great.
Or maybe we should just partner with them.
Fantastic, right?
Let's do the things that no one is doing.
That is what makes me a passionate.
And that is what a good CRO, I think, needs to be doing because we're not here to do easy stuff.
I think customer support is uninvestable today.
And I get so much shit on Twitter for this because everyone shits on a bit.
But I'm like Sierra and Dakon, obviously two market leaders in terms of brand and yeah, how much money they've raised.
And you've got 16 providers who've raised over 75 million in the last 18 months, and you've got all the incumbents and your sales force and Atlassian, and then your intercoms and Zendest and everyone in between.
OpenAI uh will do a customer support product if if if they continue doing new products.
Maybe it was gonna happen, maybe not anymore.
Do you agree it's not investable?
I would not personally invest, but I also think that like the opportunity for companies that are like established and growing a lot to go into that space is good.
It's it's big, right?
Why doesn't 11 labs do it?
We do, we do customer support, and the majority of our customers starts with customer support and we make an absolute ton of money on that.
And the ROI for our customers that like use uses for customer support is insane.
Insane.
What percent of your revenue is customer support?
Give it 20, 30, 40.
We don't we we don't share that, but I think like it it works really well.
It's like the fastest product in terms of revenues that we've ever had.
It's just insane.
But also think like you look at like all of our competitors, like you mentioned Sierra, Dekon and all of the other ones, we power all of them.
So we actually make money off like literally customer support with our agents platform, but also we make money from our API foundational model layer across the board.
So that's the good thing about 11 labs that it's like spread so widely.
How do you think about empowering your competitors?
I think like it gets to a point where like I think like fundamentally, like we we've been very happy to actually support the entire infrastructure layer because we believe that like the opportunity in the market was like way bigger than anyone anyone was expecting, right?
Boys and and and interactions with humans and human technology interaction, like it is the fundamental piece that was missing in the entire puzzle.
Now you end up having situation where like similar to I don't know, like a NVIDIA that was like competing with like powering everyone, but also competing with everyone, right?
I think that's actually fine.
Like it's it's okay that the market is big enough for multiple companies to coexist and then try to target the same customers.
I'm not gonna deny it.
I think like also means that like everyone needs to be aware that that will happen.
So when we launch our agents product, I called the biggest platforms, agents platform that we're operating in our platform, and I told them, like, guys, FYI in the next couple of months, we're gonna be launching our agents product.
We're gonna be competing with you.
Just wanted to make sure that like you're okay with this.
I wanted to make sure that like you understand that like we are going to this space.
And the funny part was like all of the founders that I interacted with telling them this, they were like, Yeah, welcome on board.
That's okay.
And it's good because like if you're able to actually be transparent with that and say, like, hey, I'm gonna be competing with you, but at the same time, I'm partnering, and in some deals you will win it, and in some deals I will win it, and in some deals we will partner together.
That's when you end up creating a good ecosystem in parallel.
So I think you have to be unwaveringly aggressive now on BD and sales, because I think you have an 18 to 24 month period where CIOs, CISOs are like, AI, we have to have it, we have to have a message for it.
That won't last forever.
Do you agree?
100%.
And our team is dedicated to that.
It's like everyone is like selling agents left and right, we've had the best quota ever, it's been fantastic.
But people are incentivized to sell agents because we know like we are competing with other companies.
And sometimes those companies like end up complaining to us, being like, Why are you competing with me when you're also like selling me?
But the reality is like, hey, if you pay me like one dollars, one dollar, and I could be charging the c the end customer, like, or you're charging the end customer 20 dollars, then I'm like, I mean, maybe I'm doing something wrong here as well.
I I totally get that.
One of my dear friends is Jason Lampkin who built a game and he used 11 labs for the voice, and he was like, It was great, amazing.
I have such a beautiful product, so amazing, so amazing.
Fuck, it was expensive.
And then people started using it and it became even more expensive.
And he's like, This will be the year of substitution where you try a great product, like 11 labs, it's amazing, and then you go, Oh fuck, it's expensive, and then you substitute for the cheaper, but 80% of it.
Do you think that's true?
No.
I think like there was a lot of like conversations last year.
And I that's actually, and I've changed I've evolved my mind on all of these things.
And of course it will continue to evolve, right?
But a lot of people were talking last year about like, oh, open source models are gonna take over, like even on the AI voices space, like you're gonna get commoditized and so on.
And for a period of time, I kind of believed it.
I was like, yeah, I mean, there is a point in time, like open source models will take over, like it will be fully commoditized, great.
Like we just need to continue going deeper on the product integrations, full verticalization, distribution, all of the stuff.
Great.
And what I ended up realizing is like even if open source models become extremely good at the same quality level that we have, like it is the additional hassle, it is the additional components that like make it very difficult for any organization.
So if you're a bank already, you might want to play with the idea of what if I use open source models.
The problem is that those open source models are not built for the skill that you would want.
You would still need to maintain them.
You would still need to actually make them operational.
And 11 apps actually takes that away from you.
And 11 apps agent takes that away from building the entire orchestration and managing it.
Everyone can be building anything from scratch.
It's just, do you have the time and do you have the resources?
And if the priority in the company changes, are you gonna be able to continue adjusting and making sure that you get the right funding in there?
And I don't think that is true.
And we're seeing it all around the world.
We're like, yeah, we could go with open source models.
Excellent, do it.
You try to operationalize it, and they've lost three months and then they come back.
So interesting.
Uh 11 labs is almost a bit like open AI in the way that or anthropic in the way that it's like it's this foundational layer, and you can go in any strategic product direction you want from that foundational layer.
There's this LLM school's voice.
And the question is, will I be claudified, so to speak?
Then there's a question of will I be a lab 11 labsified?
You can do SDR agents with voice.
How do you think about weighing that off in terms of where your product direction goes?
I think it's like it's uh it's an over-evolving evolving question all the time.
Like it's it's not that simple to decide to do that.
Do you have verticalized sales teams?
We have verticalized sales teams right now in specific markets, markets that are much bigger or markets that are much more mature, 100%.
We have people that only do like BFSI, only teams that do like uh healthcare.
What does it take to do vertical sales teams?
And what have been your big lessons on what mistakes people make?
So I will give you an example.
Like in India, like I try to implement verticalized sales team too early and essentially kind of the price of revenues for a single quota, and it was like an absolute disaster.
And then I realized like, no, no, no, no.
What happened to me then?
You you you divided everyone and then it didn't work?
Like what happened?
It didn't work because like A, people were not passionate enough, B, like you needed a long time to actually close like some of the biggest sales.
And C, like I I I like the team was way too small.
And like if you do it like early on, if you segment too early, then you fundamentally end up like screwing things up.
So what I realized, like I have this placeholder in my in my calendar every single week that is called pipeline construction.
And that pipeline construction, it's like similar to like portfolio construction that you're familiar with.
But for me, it's like pipeline construction.
How do I take a VC term and put it in like in my mindset?
How do I design the perfect pipeline for any given market and segment?
And that that's when you start thinking is like actually you need like the liquidity, but you also need the big whales.
So each one of my account execs needs to have the ability of like closing big whales, specifically on the enterprise segment, but also having like liquidity in the pipeline so that they don't lose the confidence because people were losing the confidence.
Told me you have pipeline construction.
What's the next subsequent step?
You break out how many sellers you have in that market?
Correct.
Yes.
Let's say we have 20.
Let's say 20 for any given market.
Doesn't really matter.
I mean, we have a lot less than those ones.
Sure.
Let's just say, but like, what do we do then?
20 average deal size?
I look into the average DSLs.
I look into like what are the numbers of companies in there?
What's the average deal size?
100K?
Depends on the market.
Let's just say 100k because it's easy for our maths.
100K.
And then we're like, okay, if I need to hit what's the maths we're trying to get to?
I'm just trying to understand.
So for me, the key item is like how many companies are in that market?
How many like very complex enterprises in that market?
And how do I create enough liquidity in that market to close deals every single week?
So that the team stays motivated and sees the challenges of closing deals.
Have you ever had a situation where you're like, shit, the ramp I need to get on my sellers to get to my quota is too high.
Yes.
I I'm not I'm not equipped enough to hit that quota.
100%.
Government vertical is one of those ones where like we said, you know what?
I like, and it was one of the big bets that I made this year.
It was like I don't go to the city.
Why do government in the nicest way?
Hard sales cycles, tough to get in.
Yeah.
You're crushing in other areas.
Why do government fundamentally because one is very sticky?
Number two is like it's a benefit that we make to society.
If we can deploy agents for people to have better interactions with like the actual like government and government services, it's an absolute no brainer.
And I don't care if I don't make enough money to justify it or like I lose money, it doesn't really matter to me.
And then the three is like it's a hard industry to get in.
So the moment you actually get in, then it's just like you never leave that industry.
When you start mapping those things out, you need to make the bets.
And one of those some of those bets will pan out really well, some of the ones will not like pan out that well, but it's like literally portfolio construction.
How quickly can I do some of this some of these sales so that I can spend time also like in the difficult ones and my investors don't call me saying, What the fuck are you doing?
I'm gonna fire you, right?
And I think that's like a fundamental of idea of like portfolio construction.
And you do it at a like a country level, it's one of the new countries that you actually want to be launching, and that is a completely different concept than what the majority of like CROs are actually thinking these days.
If you tap it into like AI agents for like uh go to market and other pieces, then you have like something that is quite unique for your business.
So, what did you do in India then?
You verticalized too early, segmented too early, yeah, depressed the market for a cool.
We went back to zero.
We went back to like horizontal.
Let's do horizontal.
Let's be allow people to do like much deeper, and then we will start segmenting again when the right timing comes.
And what ended up happening is like I would then we would then give them like I would then give them like a name account list and negotiate with them based on like fundamentally like how I was thinking about like the portfolio construction.
And that worked really well.
Like literally we lost a quota, we end up changing all of that from the ground up, and then you could see like people starting closing deals in the first month.
And it was like insane because like it was day and night.
We had changed the culture in the team in the local market by getting it wrong.
Let's go back to the basics, let's redo it from scratch, accept that we've made a mistake, and then move on.
Does brand dramatically reduce enterprise sales cycle?
When you can like another fans, 11 labs in India, I'm sure like a year ago, not actually a very big brand.
No, versus in the UK and the US, very big and much easier.
Does brand reduce enterprise sales cycle?
Yes, one million percent.
And whoever tells you no, it's like just lying.
That is a fact.
And I think like the ideal scenario is like no one gets fired like the idea, like you remember like IBM, right?
Like no one got gets fired for actually buying IBM.
It's like that is the ideal scenario for any brand.
It's like literally you become the safest asset in the block.
Great.
I think like the two companies that today have been able to make it is or three companies if you want OpenAI, Anthropic, full respect for them, cursor.
The three of them, I think for me, are like Cursor has killed enterprise unbelievably well.
Yeah.
They they've done super well.
And it's fantastic.
Like those are the three like brands that are like blue cheap organizations right now in the procurement like teams perspective, an IT team's perspective.
It's fantastic, it's great.
No, but everyone on Twitter, it's one of those really funny ones, but everyone on Twitter's like, and no one needs them anymore.
We always use claw code, you're such idiots.
And it's like, sure, we're going to HSBC in Hong Kong or wherever around the world, like Barclays Bank in Swansea.
That's what I promise you.
They they're using Cursor actually in their local dev shop.
And it is great.
Like it just means like brand will help you solidify your position, but also you need to like the bigger pro like.
But also the stickiness of these big enterprises.
That's also the unwavering.
And it's not that easy to get into the big enterprises anyway, right?
It's not that easy.
You've done it with like the portfolio companies, you know how difficult it is for them.
But once you start getting into the motion as a venture capitalist, I've I've done it, period.
I have all of the companies we invest in, we basically found, you know, we we do all the work, really.
That's exhausting.
Well, you do it with LPs.
So imagine your LP is like it's exactly the same content.
Like your LP is like the big cell cycle.
Multi-SL cycle.
Exactly.
I mean, seriously, multi-sale cycle.
One of our biggest LPs was the six-year sales cycle.
I'm not surprised.
Uh-huh.
Absolutely.
But how do you create enough form or how do you create enough brand to be able to actually like reduce that six years to like a lot less?
Yeah, brand does that.
Exactly.
What percentage of your new sellers work out?
The majority of them.
Do they?
We're talking about like our churn rate on the sales side is actually not that big.
Really?
It's because like when I make an offer, I tell every single person it's like 11 Labs is gonna be extremely difficult.
Extremely difficult.
We are a hard company to work for because we have extremely high expectations.
You're gonna work like a huge amount of hours.
I expect full commitment, and people love it.
So you end up filtering out people that actually don't want to have that type of life.
And I think that's okay.
Do you think it's possible to retain that at scale?
You get these soft management people who are like, oh no, we need to filter down the messaging.
Do you think that's possible at scale?
I think it is possible.
But it is possible if you try to retain like a smaller team and you implement the latest technologies to actually like become it make everyone more efficient in general.
Of course, like the bigger the company, then I think you get softer.
But you look at what Mark and Drisson was saying the other day, and like companies are overstaffed by 25% and even more, right?
Of course there is a trade-off between like overstaffing and understaffing.
So like if you understaff and people have like even in sales or like revenue, you have too much pipeline, they end up not closing nothing.
How many salespeople do you need to hire this year?
We're we we're about adding about like another hundred and twenty people more or less.
So it will keep the entire sales team.
What's your sales team now?
It's a hundred and thirty people.
So we we'll keep it under two hundred and fifty.
But you're doubling sales team.
Doubling the sales team, yeah.
And the sales is gonna grow much quicker than that.
Do you worry about that?
Yes.
And that that's a lot to bring on board.
A lot of doubling the sales team.
Yes.
What are the pitfalls that you need to avoid?
One is the dilution.
Like, if you're not upfront about the expectation, I think you end up diluting because people come with different expectations.
They essentially like behave in a specific way that it's not the way that you wanted.
How many of them?
Of course, can you correct it?
I went to a company the other day.
Essentially, there was a sales leadership board of all the reps, and there were like seven reps.
And six reps had between five thousand and eight thousand points and just points, just thinking that.
And then the bottom one had 2,000.
And the next best one had 5,000.
Pretty freaking clear.
This person is way off.
Do you just cut it there and then?
Or are you like, oh, give them time?
It's only been a month.
Yes and no.
For us, like all of the stats are publicly open to everyone.
So everyone knows how much revenues we make, everyone knows how each one of the reps.
Do you do you have a leaderboard internally?
Yes, we do.
How does how do you do that to create that competition?
So people like we post automatically.
We have a bot that actually will post automatically into the sales channel every single week, a summary of like what percentage of quota tame in year to date for that specific order and all of that stuff.
And the finding on a power rep basis.
Do you worry about demoralization or losing uh exact?
I mean, dude, if I'm like if I'm like looking at the report and it's like Harry bottom next week, that's we Harry Bottom.
I'm like, oh fuck.
You're out.
I'm lost.
It's so mean.
It's like public.
You know, you know.
I was the fat kid at school, and it was horrible because you had running races, and that you're losing in public was so public because everyone could see how far behind you were.
Sales attracts a different profile.
Sales attracts the people that are much more outspoken, people that are much more extrovert, people that will actually want to do something different, right?
So by definition, you don't go into sales if you're not willing to take like the harsh feedback.
If you're not willing to actually most sales reps is offered today.
I think a very large portion of them are because they don't have the environment to actually like just push harder, or because they've already lost the passion and that they just want a normal job.
And that's okay, don't get me wrong.
That's absolutely fantastically well.
It is not what I'm hiding for.
What's your tell for the obsessed that wins?
For me, like you can get it very quickly, right?
Like people that have extremely high energy that are sharp, that like are thinking quick.
And also like there is other people that like will be slightly opposite, but also like they're gonna be very, very deep.
And it's like it might take them a little bit more long, like more time to actually like get there.
And those are like less obvious.
But once they do, it's just insanely good, right?
Like if people are like sharp and they're energetic and passionate and they come across as like someone that really wants to win, and you can ask them, like, hey, like pitch me 11 laps as if I was, I don't know, like a fish, whatever it is.
Like, like it doesn't really matter, right?
Like, then you get a sense of like how quickly they're thinking and how passion they have, like how much passion, how much actually they've researched the company, who are they thinking, all of that stuff.
Like, you end up having in a in a very short conversation.
Like, I don't need to spend more than 20 minutes to know if I want to hire someone or not.
And I will tell you, like, the majority of times I end up putting my feedback in Ashby.
We use Ashby internally.
I end up putting my feedback in Ashby during the conversation.
By the middle of the conversation, I have my feedback.
And I'm one of those like crazy guys that like write a lot while I'm talking to someone.
I hate when it gets recorded.
Then people end up behaving in a very specific way versus actually like being themselves.
So I write a lot when I'm while I'm interviewing people, and then I have my summary, and in parallel, I'm writing and I'm doing my summary, and that's it.
And it works really well for me.
And why do you hate the recorded element?
So for me, uh, all of our calls in the launch fund are recorded because it's important for us that we can share them and I can ramp up without being in the room.
My personal take is that like interviews, like people behave differently if they think that they've been recorded versus if they think that actually they have freedom to say whatever they think is is best.
In sales, we are always like asking to record it, and we have like it's mandatory for everyone.
You use gong?
We use gong and then automatically fills out our like a sales force, and so we try to automate as much as possible.
And by the way, like Lobo has the best CRM that I've ever seen.
Those guys have really smashed it.
Like, shout out to them.
Lovable CRM.
Uh, yes.
Like, like so.
Lobo ended up building their own platform or like you can show you.
Can you imagine if they didn't?
I mean, that'd be fine.
We should be building our own platform as well, but like we're not.
Do you buy that?
Do you buy the SAS pocalypse of like you will customize your own software entirely in the future?
For some areas, yes.
Where will you?
Where will you not?
I think like for like core things, yes.
So a CRM, I would love to customize it.
I would love to actually build it myself even.
Like it doesn't really matter.
You can you don't have to spend that much time.
It's just like a pool of data.
We haven't we haven't done it.
Uh we use Salesforce.
But for some other applications, like, I mean, why wouldn't you do it?
If it fits better in your entire ecosystem of applications, if it's easy enough, then maybe you should.
Would I build an entire Google Drive or a Gmail?
No, I wouldn't.
Like it wouldn't make any sense.
But for a good amount of applications, for sure.
If I was like a procurement guy, I would be building a procurement software for myself.
So you think the SaaS pocalypse is overexaggerated?
I think there is a very large portion that is overcharged, but I think like there is a real fact that like people will end up building their own applications.
And I think that's that's key.
I think it's it's why not.
What would you like to do with 11 labs today that you're not able to do because of lack of budget?
Oh, we've never actually like put any constraints on the lack of budget.
Like you it if you want to do something, budget is never gonna be a problem.
And that's been since we.
What is the problem?
If you want to do something and you're not allowed to, why would that be?
It might well be because you haven't proven with a test or experimentation that that is the right thing to do right now.
So for me, it's like you want uh a budget.
You want what do you want?
100k, you want 50k, you want 200k to actually prove that the things do it.
Don't ask me for a million dollars and ask me for like dedicate an entire team to it.
Don't ask me to actually dedicate six months of your time to for that specific thing.
I'm not gonna do it.
But if you do it on the side, and then you prove me that like you you can actually make it work, and I start seeing some results, we'll scale it and we'll give you all of the budget that you want.
You're on the CR, and you said that it's so interesting about kind of I want to see the data before I scale it.
You now do paid, and you do paid but you know on an F1 car, yes, oh the revolute F1.
How did you weigh up the decision to do that when it's a big investment and you had no data honestly to suggest it would work?
It took us a long time to actually get comfortable with the idea.
How much does it cost?
We we spend them a good amount of money, like the budget, like we had a budget in mind that we wanted to spend, and we went to different teams and we ended up negotiating with like this is the budget that we we we have, this is how much we want to be spending for year one, for year two, all of that stuff.
What are the options?
And then all of the teams that we spoke to, some of them were like, No, like for this, no, and or like for this, you don't get anything, uh, and you don't even get the logo.
Some of them is like, oh, we'll do all of this stuff, and then we end up like kind of narrowing down to two teams, and then we end up negotiating with uh two teams in parallel, and then there was one like which is RDA Revolution F1, like we were very impressed.
But it took us a while to actually be comfortable with the entire concept.
Would you rather premium branding on a worst team or secondary branding on a number one team?
Premium branding on the worst team, 100%.
You get more exposure, and also like you have a lot more creative freedom, and also you're betting.
So the reason one of the main reasons why we ended up picking like Audi Revolute F1 is because like if you look at the history of like Audi, it's like every single like sports championship they've entered, they've ended up winning within five years.
And that's fantastic.
And like they're building the car from scratch, they build their own like engine, they build like everything from scratch.
They're competing with like all of the big ones.
And I'm a big Formal One fan.
And I actually feel that like this idea of like incumbents, like very technologically driven, with a really clear like mindset, drive, idea to win, and so on, it is who we are as a company, 11 apps.
But it also is who like who Nick and the team are at Revolute.
So it fits really well with your entire narrative as a company if you try to do away.
What was the biggest paid marketing event that you did, event slash channel or slash activity that you did that was a mistake?
And what did you learn from that?
The majority of them end up producing good returns.
But like when I look at like the ones from an enterprise perspective that like have a better ROI for us, is like uh dinners.
When we do a dinner with like execs in a given city, that has the best ROI that you could have.
If I go to a trade show, the majority of them don't have good ROI.
How much does a dinner cost?
You could have a dinner with like four like 15 people and cost you like 3,000, 4,000, 5,000.
If you want to go bigger, then essentially you need to like shut the entire place and all of that stuff, so you will have to spend more.
Depends on the city.
It's not the same doing it in Mexico City or doing it in Barcelona or doing it in London.
But the ROI is actually quite solid.
But also dinners, the benefit of the dinners is like you end up imagine you're inviting competitors.
So you're inviting like competitors, like different customers you're trying to close.
So like those guys are gonna know that you're actually talking to these other guys, so there's a FOMO that ends up being created in place, and it just pans out really well.
And because they know they they know like it's usually the same ICPs, so they know like who is doing procurement, who's doing like whatever, who's doing like the sales, who's being like the CTO, who's this chief AI officer, all of that stuff.
They know each other.
That always works really well.
Um the worst like ROI for us has always been like uh conferences.
It just there's no ROI in there.
What's the takeaway from that?
We should be spending less on those things and should be building our own events more.
You should be building your own events, yes.
That's why we did like 11 years.
We did this insane 11 labs event, which kind of reminded me of like some kind of rock concert meet Steve Jobs kind of event.
Do you do you need to see ironically a return on that?
Or is it like 100%?
Why wouldn't you?
Like it's always difficult to know.
No, like so.
You end up like having like this concept of like influence revenue and then direct revenue or like close revenue, right?
So there's a lot of like different variations all of this that you can plan it.
And the event that we run in London, the 11 Labs summit in London, was fantastic.
Like we wanted to prove that like a European company can actually be running these big events with like like so many people, and then like put up a show that actually people get passionate and talk about it, and also motivated and presented.
We presented some ideas, we presented, like, we brought some like guests to talk in front of everyone else.
What is your biggest tip for me?
If I I'm thinking about one company in particular of us, and I I solve intelligence, amazing business in London, AI for patent lawyers.
They should do an incredible event for patent lawyers specifically, be an amazing close-knit community.
If you were to advise, say then on you should know this if you're going to do an event for your customers, having done it so well, what what would you say that advice would be?
Bring the right ICPs, design the content really well and think carefully about the content that you won't want.
What would be your advice on the content design it well?
What does that mean?
It has to be like not salesy.
I think if it needs to feel natural, like you should do like a presentation about your company, like some insights, talk about like the things that are coming next, your vision, but if you make it to sales, you people will walk away and never come back.
And I think that's the fundamental trade-off.
Like for me, like these big events are like we talk a little bit about 11 labs.
So Matty ends up doing like the big keynote, but then after that, for me is all about how do we put those partners, those companies that are building in our platform or are using our technology in front of as many people as possible so that we learn about them.
And I I did my my I did a fireside chat with three amazing companies like BCG and Naturgi and Connector.
For me, it was more about like how do we enhance their appearance?
How do we like talk about like what are they building, what they're using?
It's less about 11 labs, it's about like them.
And I think that's like you need to plan the content in a way that like it feels less salesy.
You talk about it, but also you bring partners to validate that what you're doing is actually right.
Totally get that.
You said they're partners.
How do you think about partnerships as a channel at 11 Labs?
Yes.
What are the big misnomers that people have around partnerships?
There is a concept that I really like that we've actually done fairly well, I would say at 11 labs, which is like the strategy partners, and that is strategic partners, like we put in that bracket is like companies that have a C V C.
And I know like this is gonna be controversial, but like I actually love CVCs, like corporate venture capitalists because they help you navigate big brands, they are your champions internally, and their incentive is to actually make it work really well for the business.
Just for people to kind of understand that's like Salesforce Ventures, that's exactly like uh Deutsche Telekom Cap uh like T T Capital, which I think have one.
They all of them end up having one, like Entity Docomo ventures, like all of them have like one of them.
But the good thing is they know their business, and they were not sexy up until like a year and a half ago, two years ago, they were not sexy.
It's like returns were not there, as we know, right?
Like CBC getting returns is like really difficult.
And they were just like trying to like fight to get a location in the best companies, but like it's just not possible.
Today we've proven with 11 labs that like we dedicated time to actually partner with like Wolfen Capital from Toyota with the Deutsche Telekom guys with the telephonica guys with Liberty Global that actually join our cap table, all of those pieces.
Like that is a fantastic distribution strategy, and so you get them to invest a small amount and then you distribute through them.
Exactly.
And you essentially we we negotiate contracts with them, and essentially they end up like depending on the situation, you have one side or another one.
Do they have to bring a certain amount of pipe or promises to get a certain amount of allocation?
Uh yes, they do.
Like we we are 11 lamps, we're nothing is free.
But I think I think I like it because like it incentivizes like the way I organized this this concept initially and it was so funny when I pitched it to Matthew I was like really people are going to give us money as a contract and I was like like investors and I was like yeah let's try right and I think like the reality was that like you end up aligning incentives.
If that incentive is to also only invest that incentive is only to invest but your incentive is actually to close a deal.
So how do you figure out something that works along the way so that like you put and end up saying you know what you will invest for every million dollars that you want to invest you need to actually like bring X amount of revenues in the next 12 months or 24 months whatever timeframe you want.
And there has to be some penalties and some consequence if that doesn't happen.
That is the way that like if you don't bring it like we we strike you less like is that possible?
We buy you out.
I think and I think it works perfectly fine.
And then everyone is incentivized and the logic and I I strongly believe that is the case and that's how I pitch it to everyone is like we want the best.
So if you invest in a million dollars in 11 labs and you bring a contract you help us close a contract then your valuation goes up.
So you're making money from the BC side but also your business is getting more efficient because it's implementing 11 labs.
It's a win-win for everyone.
I totally get right well I think the other thing that you also get is like a public market messaging story, which is like we're closely partnered with 11 labs, a pioneer in the industry and four large telecoms providers wherever you are around the world or whatever enterprise you are, that helps a lot.
100%.
But also like the the beautiful side is like you end up building new products specifically for them because then you get the insights of the industry.
So we went into like the telco industry.
We had no idea about the telco industry.
We've actually learned everything about the telco industry partnering with like KPN, Deutsche Telekom, Telefonica, NTT Ocomo, all of those like really amazing brands that like have been industry for a very long time.
We work very closely with the Woban Capital guys at Toyota.
We are learning a lot about the automotive industry because they're in the cap table, so everyone is motivated to it.
Like in the same with like um like in financial services or even going into different markets, like there's a number of advantages of like having corporate BCs in your cup table just because you incentivize you and you increase your like opportunities of being successful.
What are the biggest mistakes that you think people make with partner ecosystems?
I think people think of them as like a silver bullet, oh, we'll have a partner and then it's done.
I think you need to have people who nurture those partners incredibly well to teach them, train them, onboard them.
What would be some others from your perspective?
It takes time, it takes fucking long time.
Like, and that is the reality.
Like if you're coming into like the distribution side with partners or you're building the entire partner ecosystem thinking that you're gonna be like making another 20% of revenues like in two quarters, you you're wrong.
Like that doesn't happen that way.
You need people dedicated to it, you need incentives for them because people lose interest and you need your incentives for your own team.
So initially start using like SQOs, sales qualified opportunities, or SQLs as sales qualified leads to be able to actually track how much volume is being generated and what is the actual traction being generated.
And then once you start having a solid like motion in there, then you start tracking and move it towards like the revenues.
So each one of the SQOs needs to be generating a certain amount of revenues.
Other than letting them invest, how do you incentivize your partners to push you?
You can always and Salesforce has done it extremely well for me.
They're the reference on this.
And what I mean by that specifically is like any company that's very large could spend a large amount of money.
And with PLG, everyone tends to start small, and then the hope is they expand much bigger and bigger and bigger.
How do you think about what ACV is large enough for reps to spend significant time on trying to get it?
A thousand dollars a month.
When you started spending a thousand dollars a month as a business, your brain completely switches because you don't want to put it anymore in your credit card.
And at that point, you start believing like shit.
I'm spending a lot of money at that in there with that software.
I do have high expectations.
At that point, if you have emotion from a sales perspective that is fast enough, then it doesn't really matter.
And you're ready for a weird one.
One of my favorite sayings I've heard recently is like fear is a mile wide and an inch deep, and you need to take the step to realize it's not as scary as you think.
Where have you thought the thing was very scary and difficult?
Where it actually wasn't once you did it?
I had a very clear conviction that like at level apps launching India was going to be extremely difficult and we might fail.
And what I end up realizing is like I didn't know enough the market to realize like if you do it well, you can make a ton of money and also generate a ton of buzz and generate a lot of ROI.
Do you have to send OG team members to every market you open?
No.
But we do it centrally.
We always try to like build a market, like centrally from HQ, trying to close some deals so that for me it's free to actually like deploy a single person on the ground.
Sorry, how many is free to deploy a single person on the ground?
Because like I'm already making revenues, I'm profitable, I'm making revenues in that market.
I've proven that like it is a market that is getting.
So you only go into new markets when you've already got a lot of customers and you can see the PLG.
No, not on the PLG.
I don't even look at the PLG numbers.
I don't care about those ones.
I look at like what are the enterprises, what are the companies in that market?
How is my portfolio construction in that market?
And how can I close some of those companies to get to a certain level of revenues?
At the moment that I get to that certain level of revenues, for me, I've nailed a product idea that needs to grow and needs to prove that like it can scale and you can have like product market fit, but at least I've proven that actually can start selling in there.
Then that's the moment that I actually I can get the team on the ground.
What market are you not in today, geography or sector that you would most like to be in?
We we are everywhere these days, literally everywhere.
Everywhere.
I have teams all around the world.
Some of them have been announced, some of them have not been announced, but we we have teams all around the world, yes.
Where are you weakest?
I think in general, like we've been weak in some of the languages, and that is like entirely my fault on believing that like you could sign contracts everyone is in the world, everyone in the world speaking English only.
And then you realize later on that it's like that's just not possible.
And don't get me wrong, like I start I opened like Japan by myself without speaking Japanese.
Japan's hard.
It's really hard.
My friend is Daniel Dines from UiPath.
He told me before how hard Japan is a major market for them now and it's phenomenally successful, but it's hard to spin up.
It's really hard.
And I started doing it like two years ago, going myself to Japan, like constantly and meeting companies, and we started generating motion.
It was great.
And then I hired my first rep, and then I hired the GM, Jim, and the rest of the team.
That was a really hard market.
And you could not sell in English everywhere else in the world.
But you could also like not sign contracts that are always in English.
Like, so if you end up having a team that is mostly has mostly had experience in the US, their belief is that like it you can repeat that anywhere in the world.
The reality is like you look at Latin America, less than 5% of the population speak English.
If you want to open France and launch in France, good luck.
It's only going to be speaking English.
Good luck if you don't offer like French law in your contracts.
No one's gonna be signing it.
So there is some of these learnings that we've had that are really, really tough.
There's like we wanted to actually sell in France, and well, I was not speaking French.
Then let's get someone that speaks French, right?
So there is some of those things that we've learned by doing.
That is my entire fault, but it's also like part of the experimentation, I think.
If you think that South Korea is fucking hard.
We are there, we have an office.
Yes.
It's really, really, really tough.
But also like the benefit of Korean, that's why I was saying earlier, like you need to have a thesis on why you're launching in a specific market.
But the thesis on Korea was they produce a ton of content, they're very innovative when they want, and they're producing products and services, not for the local market, but for the international market.
So, in reality, yes, you need to be selling in Korean, but the majority of your usage will not be in Korean, will likely be for the international market.
So, how do you support and map those languages they care about so that you can target those companies, at least for us?
Are you happy to be powering the decline of Hollywood?
And I didn't mean that horribly, but like the there was a brilliant article the other day on the permanent decline of Hollywood, and I think it was a Wall Street Journal article, but it essentially said about the democratization of content creation and what that's done to consumer attention and hence the decline of Hollywood is producing less less content.
You are in large part powering that.
I can paint a very positive case for democratization, income equality, equalizing content, and also declining Hollywood.
Is that a good thing?
I don't think that's how we will put it.
I think like Hollywood is declining in this model that they have today.
We're like very big budget productions that require a ton of people, that require a lot of different things, right?
And I think they're going through a crisis.
But I actually think Hollywood will come out like even stronger than this.
And I think at the end of the day, like it's like imagine that you get a startup, and the startup tells you like, you know what?
I need a hundred million dollars, or I need 50 million dollars pre-seat just for this idea, and then it's gonna take me five years to get it out.
I don't know who's gonna buy it.
What are you gonna say?
Like, why don't you raise a million dollars?
That's gonna be your like raise a million dollars, proof like some points and then start going there.
And I think that's the problem with Hollywood right now.
I don't think it's like AI voices, I don't think it's AI video.
I think those are like additional solutions to make sure that you're democratizing it and you're reducing your cost of launching new ideas to the market.
And that is going to be part of the solution.
It's actually why I find defense so hard to invest in, which is like it takes five years and 200 to 250 million dollars before you can make your first order of revenue on a defense product.
Quoting from Matt Steigman, who's the president CBO of Andrew.
I think he knows his shit.
Yep.
That's just tough for me as like a seed venture investor to get on board with that cost curve to dollar gain.
Do you know what I mean?
And and that's the m that's that's what needs to change fundamentally like how do we create content that like takes less money, dollars to actually be created.
You start very slowly, but also then you ramp up once you realize that actually there is product market fitting that content.
And I've spoken with a lot of studios over the past like three years.
I've spent a lot of time in in LA, in the industry.
And my pitch always to them is like, hey, let's try to create content that like will capture people's attention across like the channels that they operate today.
And if it works well, let's scale it.
Then you have the $50 million dollar budget.
And I think like what's what AI can benefit a lot.
But you have, and because like you can iterate a lot, you can create content that is personalized, you can create it that is like is is engaged by people.
And then we were talking yesterday about like this idea of like cost per engagement.
Why don't we use exactly the same framework?
How much is the cost for every single person that gets engaged in your content?
And that content can essentially expand to be extremely high quality as you're proving that like fundamentally the dynamic changes, right?
You mentioned a couple of times about also investing as well.
Fantastic investor.
Obviously, we've invested a lot together.
Should more operators be investors at the same time?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
It should always.
But it should like my my my thinking here is like it is because like in founders want to be backed by other founders.
They want to be backed by the best operators.
They also want to be backed by the best in this investors.
If you are like an operator and you are willing to deploy time, not money, time to help a company like navigate and try to be successful, at some point you will end up realizing that like why not to actually do it from with institutional money.
Okay, because flip side, when you take institutional money, it's a great responsibility of taking on other some someone else's money, and you have already made a promise to your employer that you will devote your best efforts and all of your energy to making them successful and the company successful.
If you're suddenly looking at defense companies at seed, you are not doing that job to the best of your ability.
I don't think so.
I think that you can do like both things in parallel and one contributes to the other one.
Like I don't think there is any conflicts in there fundamentally.
I don't think so.
I think you can, because you have reached and I'm I'm I'm your friend Ashton that you can.
But I don't think otherwise.
Like honestly, if I was one of your sellers and I was going home and in the bathtime reading about next generation drone companies and the cost curve to launch drone companies, you'd be like, dude, your motherfucking turf is France and it's media.
You could round that instead.
I would be saying that if I was 100%.
And I would understand it.
Like, I know, but I'm getting the best out of myself by doing that.
But you know what?
But the interesting thing is like I think you you put it really well in the other in the other podcast, which is like you are the hardest working person in the office.
I am the same.
And if you want to do both things at the same time, you need to prove every single day that you are the hardest working person in the office.
And I think that's when it works fundamentally.
Like you will work really hard for the company, but also you will work really hard for your investors and your LPs.
And I was when I was negotiating my my LPA with with my LPs, we got stuck in one's clause.
You know, like always you get stuck in clauses and things like that.
What was the clause?
I can't even remember.
But like, and I remember like that clause, which is like for me was absolutely silly.
And I was like pushing back, and like for them, it was like core to them.
I was like, I call my my my man LP, which is absolutely fantastic.
Like Cindana Capital, they're really amazing guys.
But like I remember calling them, we're like, guys, like we need to get over this.
Like, if we are all fucked, if I don't return the money and I don't do all of these things, we're all fucked.
It doesn't really matter how we see it, right?
It just doesn't really matter.
So let's move on.
Let's close this thing.
Let's make sure that I start deploying the capital, and then we will celebrate.
And if it doesn't work out, I'm fucked, I'm accountable for all of this.
I lost all of this money.
We'll figure it out, but I don't think I will lose your money.
I think I will do like a 10X.
And I'm happy with it.
And we ended up like moving on.
What fund would you be happy with?
What do you say to investor?
I I would be very happy with the 10x, I'd be very happy with the six eyes, I'd be very happy with the.
I think like for me is like the way I I thought when I was raising a fund is like I will be very happy uh the moment that I actually have seven unicorns in my fund.
Seven.
It has to be seven.
I'm not gonna be seven.
I don't know.
It's a number that I have.
Just like David Beckham.
I don't watch football.
But like soccer, sorry.
Okay, well, he was number seven, which is why.
No, but I think that's the key.
Like people that like want to achieve something that is different, have a very clear idea of like what is the actual like vision that they have.
Like if you'll see it only.
I don't care.
You don't care.
I don't care.
Because you do the A of 11 laps with 350k, you'll make a fuck ton of money.
Sure.
I did the pre-seed.
No, I get pragmatic.
It's okay.
I got you.
I did a pre-PC.
No, but I think like at some point, like unit economics like also matters, but also, like, I think it's important to stay within your lane as well, right?
Like, I get a lot of like A's and amazing companies.
I just it's just know my area of expertise as a fund investor.
And that's not what I'm gonna have a lot of fun as uh as an investor.
Is it no?
Not and not for me.
I love like the scrappiness, I love the crazy ideas, I love the companies, like the founders are like no one to it, no one wants to back them.
I like those ones.
I love things that are like not obvious.
We just did a deal together.
And it it it wasn't, I mean, for me it was very obvious.
For your team, it was like cure and for you was like pretty obvious.
But I also like talked to a lot of other VCs and they were like, uh no.
And I'm like, how is this a no for you?
I don't understand it.
Those are the things that I really like.
My favorite though is that when we did it, then they had like 10 people call and be like, by the way, super interesting to speak about the round.
You know what?
That happens a lot.
No shit.
That happens a lot.
Oh, wait, so you went on interesting a week ago, and now that you know that 20 VC and Baobab are doing it, then you're interested.
No, thank you.
I I I totally agree with you.
Unit econ, does it matter early?
You said that it does.
A lot of the time with AI companies, it's like inverted, and like actually if your unit econ's good, it almost means that no one's using your product.
I don't think it matters in the early days.
I don't I think it's more about like how do you get speed.
But if you're building an entire brand new market from scratch, I think you have like a a power of deciding the pricing, and that pricing will help you a lot in terms of unit economics.
So the key item is like, are you building something from scratch?
And if so, then you have like pricing power.
If you're not, and you're only looking at like building something that other people already have, then you're gonna get screwed, and then you will have to figure out how to actually go deeper to be able to charge more.
What's your single biggest advice for me?
Pretend I'm an operator of a company, I'm uh head of sales, I'm ahead of product, ahead of growth, any of the kind of coveted people that you're bought on a cap table.
And I'm like, I'm thinking about any more investing.
What would your advice to me be, having done all that you've done?
Uh be helpful.
Like the money that you're investing is not worth it.
Like, I mean, it's just not worth anything for any company.
Like, if you put like a 5k check or you put a 10k check or you put like a 50k, it's not gonna make up right the company.
And you need to be very clear that like in your mind that that's not the case.
One of the most common ways companies need your help.
Like, what's the number one way?
Go to market, hiding people, getting hiring.
Sales hiring.
Sales hiring.
Uh for me, like I go into customer calls with my my portfolio companies and absolutely love it.
I do interest for them.
I ask them like to send me like their decks, uh, their pitch, like record themselves pitching, and I give them feedback.
And I love it, because then I can figure out essentially how potentially we can change it, how like are we in the right market?
Are we not?
Are we getting the right traction or not?
I absolutely love it.
And I think that's you can be helpful with your portfolio companies in your own way.
Just forget about the money, do small checks.
It doesn't really matter.
I always say do the same size check every time.
Do not do the whole, oh, I think this one's great, I'll put 50, this one I'm not sure, I'll do 10.
But no, no, no, just do twenty-five every time or whatever it is.
I think there's like different variations and methods.
I've not done it in my life.
I've essentially, as my wealth kept increasing, then fundamentally started doing bigger checks, and that's okay.
But and you know, like sometimes, like, of course, we fool ourselves saying this is the company.
And you know how like the majority of times that we do it, like you end up getting disappointed.
We get disappointed, but also like we would do it again.
What's your biggest investing mistake?
Like, I've done a few investments where like I was committed on the market, I was convinced on the founders, but I did not check uh how hungry they were to actually like do go to market.
I ended up finding out that like yes, they were very hungry to build product to execute, but they were not hungry and actually like iterate on the go to market.
How do you test hunger on go to market specifically?
I think it's very difficult.
I think like for me, it's like if uh in the first conversation, like I want to understand like how are they thinking about go to market already?
And if they tell me like, sorry, I'm just like I'm only thinking about like building research and doing all of these things, like fantastic.
I love your product, this is great, it's fantastic with your mindset, your ideas, it's just not for me.
Because then you're gonna be fighting with them for like go to market.
And I have a bunch of my portfolio companies that actually are like that.
And it's great, don't get me wrong, they're doing super well, and I I love them and I'm as helpful as I can, but at some point the party ends.
And if the music ends and you're stuck without having a product where you're monetizing it, and you're stuck with the idea that like we can always make more money later on, then you're gonna get fucked.
You can invest all of your money into one company that you've banned.
Which company?
Can't be 11 laps.
11 laps for sure.
Obviously, it can't be.
But okay, it cannot be 11.
You cannot be the revolution.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that there's a company in Spain called Tekker Robotics, T-H-E-K-E-R.
They're doing like robotics for like the manufacturing industry and like uh like warehouses and all of that stuff.
Absolutely the most genius guys that I've seen in robotics space ever.
Like they're amazing.
I would just dump all of my money in there.
How quickly do you think you know a company is good?
Was it obvious very quickly that 11 are yes, yes.
Eleven, I mean you like I talked to Matty for 30 minutes and I committed, right?
Because like for me, like you know, one of my best room fun one I think was linear.
Well well, I it yes, I know Security and it very early and I uh it all looked great, but it wasn't what it is today for a couple of years.
Actually, it was a it was a bit of a slow burner.
Do you believe in slow burners anymore?
Yes, that's absolutely fine.
Like, not everyone learns at the same pace.
Not everyone, like not everyone's market like grows at the same pace.
And I think that's okay.
Like life is not perfect.
Why would do we want to have like perfect companies in our portfolio?
No, let's do the tough things always.
I think like the reality is like uh for my my LPs, I always told them like guys, we're gonna get it right and we're gonna get it wrong.
Like, and now it's okay.
Like if I if I invest in a founder that like it doesn't work out and the founder wants to do another company and you believe the first time, why not to do it the second time?
Literally, like you are like trying to fall in the same place multiple times.
Yes, and I will because I believe in people.
And I believe in in like that they can do something that they can do, like learn from those mistakes and execute and move quicker and quicker and quicker.
I think that's okay.
I'd love to do a quick fire.
So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.
That sound okay.
Okay.
The reason I look kind of dazed and confused there is I was trying to remember this brilliant quote.
And it's like, what would you need to achieve to be happy in 2026?
Oh, I mean, for me, like if I get three unicorns and 11 laps crosses a billion dollars in revenues, I would be very happy.
Wow.
Three unicorns for the funds.
I'll be very happy.
What's the single hardest thing for you today?
Time.
It's like it's That's not an answer.
It is like it's I love you, dear.
It's not it is like it is it's I don't have the time.
And I love it.
But this is like a job into me.
I work too hard.
No, no, no, no, no, no, it is not.
And the problem is like, if you don't have enough time for certain things, then you're sacrificing like your partner, your friends, all of that stuff.
And that's the hardest thing for me.
Like it's I choose to actually work, like the amount of us that I work and work for 11 labs and work for my fund and for my LPs, but there is a choice.
And then you're choosing to do things, putting aside other things that are so equally important.
What's your escape?
Plans, like um, like gardening.
I absolutely love it.
I talk to my plants.
I have so many plans at home.
I talk to them all the time.
I water them, I like I take like small scissors and I chop chop them.
Like it's so nice.
I really like it.
And that's when I'm really stressed and I don't understand like how to fix a thing, then I start essentially like spending an hour or two hours like looking after my plans.
I can like spend time like looking at them and not doing anything, just talking to them.
That gives me back energy.
Fucking weird.
Very strange board.
No, no, there's no such thing as strange.
I think we all need to be a bit more strange.
What is the thing that makes Matty so good?
What makes him so good is like I think his ability of listening to people and then making a decision regardless of whether he gets it right or wrong, and he will acknowledge if he got something wrong and then change it immediately.
And I think that's what I value value because like you get CEOs that will tell you like most of the times I need to get it right and then make some mistakes and there.
And I feel for me the it's actually the opposite.
95% remaining things you should be getting it mostly wrong.
I think that's what Matt is trying to do and he's very successful at that like allowing people to like experiment and get it wrong and then push back but also run with their ideas and if there is a thing that he believes like it is like fundamentally like it needs to happen in a specific way he will say it and he will do it and everyone gets to be needs to be aligned.
And he has that ability of like combining both things in different moments in time and it works really well.
We've seen it at 11 labs.
Final one for you what are you most excited about when you look forward to the next 24 months I am actually looking forward to the next wave of foundational model companies.
I I I I believe that like there is a a brand new wall of opportunities that we're unlocking or that it's going to be unlocked with a new wave and you look at next generation of open AI next generation of open AI but I actually think like open AI and Anthropic and Google in 11 labs will end up buying like all of the new foundational model companies that will be popping up and creating research and paying just like a few billion here, a few billion there, and like just swapping them in.
But I think like exactly Would you rather buy open AI at 8 30 or anthropic at 500?
Anthropic.
I'm I and I put it online like multiple times.
I think like I I love open AI, don't get me wrong.
They're amazing, pushing the boundaries.
But I really like how do you think they are?
Still?
I think they're still like a pushing it, and I think that they're like they're trying to do things like good things for the world, but they were spread too thin.
And I think it's the the problem, like even us at 11 lines we're facing and anthropic is facing, everyone is facing like the when you start being very successful, you want to do too many things, and then you end up like getting too stretched and then not doing anything correctly, right?
It's like how do you do it less and then doing it really well?
But do you not think that it's been stretched too thin for too long and the anthropic acceleration has been too great?
Yes.
They need to start from scratch.
And for me, the key item is that is like how do they start building the experimentation, thinking like, yes, we're still number one, we make all of this money, but at the same time, like let's go back to the basics.
What do you use?
Anthropic.
I use Clot and I'm I'm very happy.
Like Clot is my best friend.
Like my it's it's it's actually true.
I use it all the time.
What do you for personal and everything?
Personal, like fund, 11 labs, everything.
Biggest advice to someone who hasn't got it set up who needs to.
Oh, probably I'm the worst one of all of them.
But like, I mean, I like the clot skills, for instance, and all of that, like it's it's really amazing.
But I see some of my like team members, and they're like, they've just nailed it.
I'm just like an amateur.
They're professionals at all of this.
And I would love to actually be like, you know what?
Fuck all of this.
I'm going away for an entire month, and I'm gonna be a pro at all of this stuff.
I would love to do it.
And hopefully, one day happens.
Dude, I've so enjoyed this.
Thank you so much for putting up with me.
You've been fantastic.
And I actually preferred the second time, if I can say that.
Really?
Yeah.
Nice.
Good.
But before we leave you today, a quick shout out to a company I've been genuinely blown away by and have been tracking closely, ROX.
I've been watching this team closely and the speed they're operating at and the level of applied AI talent they've assembled.
It's honestly remarkable.
Rocks is pioneering revenue agents for the global 2000, plugged into your data warehouse and CRM and delivering board-level ROI in just 90 days.
These sales and revenue agents handle the end-to-end sales process for large enterprises from research prep to deal risk, outreach, and opportunity management.
So sellers spend more time with customers and less time in tools.
This isn't another productivity app.
Christ, we've all had enough of those.
Rocks gives reps a single interface on top of their GTM stack, powered by a knowledge graph across your internal and external data.
So if you want to boost AE productivity, increase revenue per rep and consolidate your stack.
Try rocks at rocks.com/slash sign up.
And speaking of great companies, we have to talk about Monaco.
For years I've watched some of the best founders and early go-to-market teams struggle with sales.
Too many CRMs, too many point solutions, too much manual work.
Well, that changes with Monaco.
Monaco replaces your legacy CRM and fragmented sales stack with a single AI native platform.
Monaco's agents automatically build and score your entire TAM, lay it in real-time signals, create and run outbound sequences, schedule calls, and record and transcribe meetings.
Your pipeline practically manages itself.
Monaco creates reminders, draws follow-up emails for you, and keeps deals moving forward.
So that means more meetings, higher conversion rates, and faster revenue growth.
If you're an early stage startup, tired of duct taping sales tools together and looking to grow revenue faster, check out Monaco at Monaco.com.
While Monaco runs your sales pipeline, Framer runs your website.
A website should help your business grow, not slow it down.
If updates to your dot com feel harder than they should, Framer is the shortcut you've been looking for.
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And when you're ready to ship, changes go live in seconds with one click, publish, without relying on engineering.
Plus, Framer is built for scale with premium hosting, enterprise grade security, and 99.99% uptime SLAs.
Whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrate your full.com.
Framer has programs for startups, scale-ups, and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site fast.
Learn how you can get more out of your dot com from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at Framer.com slash 20vC for 30% off.
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