# Scaling Authenticity: Lessons from Chipotle Founder Steve Ells

**Podcast:** How I Built This with Guy Raz
**Published:** 2026-04-09

## Transcript

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz.
This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.
Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you.
And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1800-433-1298.
Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
All right, let's get to it.
Joining me today is Steve Ells, founder of Chipotle.
Steve, welcome back to the show.
Uh, thanks for coming back on.
Guy, it's great to be here again.
Good to see you.
Uh Steve, you've been on the show twice.
Uh, the first time, way back in 2017, when you told us, of course, the origin story of Chipotle, how you were working in a high-end restaurant in San Francisco, and basically you had this idea to sell burritos in order to save the money so you could start your own fine dining restaurant, which was your dream.
But of course, that's not what happened.
That burrito place turned into Chipotle.
It was started in Denver, and today, of course, it is a massive global restaurant brand uh at a publicly traded company.
Uh and as always, is anyone listening uh who hasn't heard that original how I built this episode about launching Chipotle, it's really fascinating.
Go go check it out.
Uh, we'll put a link to it in the podcast description.
Steve also came back uh on the show in 2023 to talk about a new concept uh that you were about to launch in New York City.
It's called Kernel.
And Steve, just to summarize it, uh basically the idea behind it was an entirely plant-based menu.
And then basically all of the ordering was done via an app, and the meals were assembled by robots, and there were still human employees, but far fewer.
Uh, but as far as I understand, with Colonel, after about a year, uh, it it, I guess it just didn't work.
Can you tell me what happened and some of the things you learned from that?
Sure.
I I think that's a very good summary, uh, Guy.
Um, but I wouldn't say that it didn't work with Colonel.
I would say, though, that uh kernel didn't appear to be the rocket ship that Chipotle was.
And I wanted another rocket ship.
And so we we closed down uh the two kernel restaurants after less than a year, uh, spent a couple of months uh uh, you know, retooling, and opened counter service.
And and I'll tell you the reception has been wonderful.
It's a sandwich restaurant, right?
It is.
If you think about the tens of thousands of chain sandwich uh places in the United States, there are um varying qualities of these places.
If you compare that with what we do at Counter Service, we're vastly different.
The bread is only four ingredients uh flour, water, yeast, and salt.
And we bake the bread every day.
Actually, we don't bake it, we have these amazing artisans bake the bread for us every day.
Uh, we roast all of our own meats, we're making all of our own sauces, we're chopping fresh herbs, we're squeezing fresh citrus, and there's this demonstrable difference between the world of chain sandwiches and what we do at counter service, much like back in 1993, there was a there was a big difference between the world of fast food and then what we started to offer at Chipotle.
Yeah, I mean, your whole model was about standards, right?
It was like we're gonna make the guacamole in every location, we're gonna marinate the meat, we're gonna grill it, we're gonna chop the pico de gallo.
And as you scaled, people said, hey, this can't be done.
You can't scale this.
Yeah.
I'm curious.
When you know, with kernel, one of the innovations was to use robots, automated uh food prep, right?
And some pretty big players uh in in are are working on basically creating kitchens where a lot of the food is cr is made by robots.
How do you assess that?
I mean, you must have learned a lot about that process with kernel.
Um, are you bullish on it?
I mean, is that where things will are are ultimately going to be headed towards not everything made by robots, but a lot of things made by you know automated machines?
So uh you know, the robot arm did really two things.
It it picked from a rack uh the item that was being ordered and put it in the oven.
And then when it was done, it took that item out of the oven.
So it was part of automating the process to help reduce the amount of of labor, but it really wasn't about um the making of the food.
You know, still in our central kitchen, we have knives and cutting boards and pots and pans, and we're really cooking.
And so the your question, will robots displace that?
I mean, maybe someday, but certainly not anywhere in the near future.
I think what we we learned that it's polarizing.
I mean, some people were fascinated with the robot arm.
Other people said they want people making their food.
At the end of the day, in pivoting from kernel to counter service, uh, we learned that the the human interaction is very, very important.
And when a customer walks into a counter service, they're greeted.
There are people uh there who welcome the customer, who take care of the customer.
Now, there are less people in a counter service than a traditional fast casual, and that's by design.
And so, you know, the system to make these sandwiches has automation in it.
It allows us to, you know, more efficiently manage the workflow, and ultimately uh it'll allow for a better economic model, which allows us to invest in higher quality ingredients and and really uh make better food.
Foundationally, it's very similar to Chipotle.
And so I just I want to do that again.
Yeah.
Awesome.
It's exciting.
Um Steve, what do you say?
Should we bring in our first caller?
I'd love to.
All right, great.
Welcome to the advice line.
Uh caller, tell please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, guys, Guy and Steve.
My name's Rebecca Smith, and I'm calling from Streaky Bay in South Australia.
My partner Tony and I established Streaky Bay Distillers in two thousand and twenty-two.
And we make small batch gin, vodka, and whiskey in our tiny distillery in our tiny town in a wild remote part of South Australia.
Wow, welcome to the show, Rebecca.
You may be the farthest caller ever.
I'm looking at Streaky Bay.
It's like, you know, because people think about like most Australians, I think live on that the eastern side, right?
Melbourne or City, Brisbane, and and there's Adelaide.
And then you're like you're like way out there.
I mean it's Streaky Bay is It's a tiny place.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you have a distillery and you make uh tell me what you make there.
We make uh small batch gin, we make some vodka, and we are just about to release our first um small batch whiskey.
And are you mainly selling it in the Streaky Bay area to like restaurants and bars and stuff?
Yeah, exactly.
So we sell it um to three sort of high-end accommodation providers who serve it either in their rooms or over the bar, several sort of bars and restaurants, and then some South Australian uh independent bottle shops and a couple of gifting businesses.
Interesting.
Yeah, tell me how how did you get into this business?
I mean, is this something you've been doing your whole career and life?
Uh absolutely not.
So I was a remote area midwife and a remote area nurse for most of my career.
And yeah, we had a a family tragedy, the death of my younger sister.
And so we were looking for artistic ways to process our grief.
And we sort of stumbled into a course in distilling, and then once we've done the course, we just absolutely fell in love with all aspects of it.
Yeah.
All right, and and tell me about so where are you selling most of your your inventory?
So we sell about 14% online through our website.
Okay.
And that is probably the most margin.
And then we also have a mobile food and cocktail van, and that's probably about 28% of our income.
And then our wholesale is 57%.
Got it.
Okay.
Um and tell me a little bit about how the business is doing.
What what's your what are your sales?
Okay, so the turnover for this financial year are expecting to be about 400,000 um US dollars.
And last year it was around 200,000.
Okay, pretty great.
All right, before we we we get to uh Steve, tell us your question.
Okay, so my question is since our inception in 2022, there's been an explosion of small family distilleries around Australia.
There's at least 650 in the craft um spirit sector.
So in this kind of climate, how do we differentiate ourselves and find a point of difference that will resonate with our buyers and be authentic and meaningful to our customers?
Okay, I want to bring Steve in.
Um Steve, thoughts, questions, ideas, um, etc.
for Rebecca.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, certainly in a crowded market, you you you do want to um let folks know how you are differentiated.
I guess that would be my question.
How how are you differentiated?
Yeah.
Um, we've been sort of trying to differentiate ourselves in in the connection to place.
So we live in a really small community and we swap our gin for local ingredients.
So uh we collect up mulberries, figs, citrus, we're kind of like the bower birds of the distilling industry.
Nice.
And we use some Australian ingredients, you know, Kwandong, Avalone Shell, Coastal Daisy, Coastal Rosemary.
And the other way that I guess we do differentiate is um we donate for one of our one of our gins, we donate five dollars a bottle to motor neurone disease um because of a family experience.
And um I got a real interest in art, so I do all of the um lino printing for the labels.
Steve, I don't know if you could see their website, but they these are beautiful bottles.
I mean, I love the the shape of the the bottle that you you've chosen and the the design and you see through it, it.
It's really nice.
It's and you've got sort of a a backdrop that gives it a beautiful color.
Uh really, really nicely done.
Thank you very much.
Nice.
So it it sounds like these um botanicals that that uh are from this particular place, these are for the gin, correct?
Correct.
Yeah.
It sounds like that's the the differentiated product that you have.
That's the gin.
Or or would you say that the vodka is also equally as differentiated?
No, I agree with you.
I think the gins are much more differentiated.
I think there's lots of those um other distilleries are also making really good vodkas and really good gins as well.
But yeah, some of the products that we use um only, as far as I'm aware, only we are using it.
It seems to me that a company that focuses that that's best in the world at at something, and maybe maybe you're best in the world at having these particular botanicals, and you you forage for them, you pick them, it's a community effort, whatever.
There's a very nice story to that.
And I think a brand that focuses on what they're best in the world at and has a product line that's that's cohesive, might somehow resonate uh or be more impactful with customers than than having, well, we have some botanicals, and then we also have a vodka, and we also have a whiskey too.
Um, just from a branding standpoint, maybe that makes some sense.
Actually, it really does.
Yeah.
We had started to wonder whether we were going a little bit off of um our original brand.
Rebecca, in the early days of Chipotle, when I presented the the offerings, people said, Well, Steve, you just you're not offering enough to people.
They want more variety.
And I said, No, no, no, people can make all different kinds of combinations of the base ingredients.
And um, but it was it was very, very different from the typical fast food approach was to have limited offerings and all different kinds of things.
And so, but but it allowed us to focus on just a couple of things and do them better than anybody else.
And I and I see a parallel between your your gin making, your botanicals, and foraging for those ingredients.
And I really like that.
That resonates with me.
100%.
I uh you know, I think about um some of these like single malts from Scotland that are from very remote places, right?
Like the like LaFroig.
I it's somewhere that you can't get to easily, but it's a massive international brand because the place became part of that brand, that story.
And your place is Streaky Bay, right?
It's the it's the taste of that abalone shell or the whatever salt.
What is saltbush?
Is it a bush that tastes like salt?
It's a really prolific bush that grows everywhere in arid climates around Australia, and it is a it's a salty taste, but you can actually um cook it, and it was eaten, you know, by traditional um Aboriginal people that lived here before.
I love that.
I mean, just the way you're talking about these these things.
Like, like I'm I mean, literally, could you put a story on the bottle?
Could you put a little booklet and just attach it to the neck of the bottle where you read that?
You know, you find out what you're doing, what you're tasting.
You're tasting the coastline of Southern Australia.
That's where you get that sense of place.
And then at and then the handcrafting and the foraging really is do you import to the United States?
No, we haven't um looked at any kind of is it is it possible?
Is that is that something that's easily done?
Or is this is this do you think going to be a uh uh product for Australia?
Would absolutely love to do it.
I think it's a very complex um thing to do, but you know, it's achievable.
Anything's achievable.
Well, I just wonder if it's easier to break away from the pack if you came to the United States.
I I think about um a lot of bars and the bartenders doing craft cocktails and and then trying to have ingredients that really stand apart from the others.
And I can see this gaining traction and it might be worth exploring the the expense and the headache of trying to break into the United States.
Yeah.
Here's my suggestion, Rebecca.
Go to I'm sure there are Australian bars in Los Angeles and New York City, right?
Where most Australians probably live, I would think.
You know, I just went to a uh uh tequila bar in San Francisco.
Every uh bottle is small artisanal Mexican brand.
They had brands you've never heard of, beautiful bottles.
And I wonder whether it'd be worth just going with a suitcase of this stuff to LA and you know, connecting with some of these bars or Australians hang out.
They're I'm sure there gotta be Australian bars, like they're Irish bars, and see if they would you start there, just carrying them.
That's a fantastic idea.
It at least sounds like a lot of fun.
And you got a story about Streaky Bay.
Now I want to go to Streaky Bay, it looks awesome.
Yeah.
It's very remote and um it's very rugged, and but uh we have empty beaches and um it's a really beautiful place.
Yeah.
Rebecca, congratulations.
What a what a fantastic brand you have.
Thank you so much, Dave.
Rebecca Smith, the brand is Streaky Bay Distillers.
Uh, thank you so much for calling in.
Thanks, Guy.
You know, I'm uh the thing about um things like gin or or even tequila, well, so you can say that with whiskey too.
There is, I mean, what she's doing, there's that element of tasting notes and flavor profiles and things that make it really interesting.
It's not just a gin, it is a abalone shell gin, right?
Like that, you know, gin and tonics great, but but an abalone shell gin and tonic sounds even more interesting.
Yeah.
Well, and so as she started as I heard about the pitch, I was thinking, like, oh, not another, not another spirit, right?
It's like, huh.
And but but her story is so authentic.
And and that she is highly differentiated in in in the um in the ingredients of this place.
You know, a product that speaks to a place is very powerful.
And then when you combine that with the um the hand foraging, uh I I just I really think it's cool.
And then the packaging is cool.
And it's it's so anti-corporate, also.
I think it's I think it'll resonate with folks.
All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Steve Ells, founder of Chipotle, and we're taking your calls.
And Steve, uh, you ready for another call?
Let's go.
All right, let's bring in our next caller.
Welcome to the advice line.
Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business or your product.
Hi, um, I'm Shri Holama, the founder and CEO of Matt Zero.
I'm calling from London.
We make low voltage and safe heating mats that warm the person and not the space.
A simple yet radical idea to save energy, cut emissions, and bring warmth to where it's needed the most.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for calling in, Sri.
So okay, Matt Zero.
This is a tell me what this is.
Describe what we're talking about here.
Essentially, it it's uh a heated mat, something that you sit on, lie on, sleep on, uh, and it heats up you directly.
Okay.
Our mats are powered by USB C.
Um, it can be powered either by battery, mains, or solar if you're completely off grid.
And it's the size of a yoga mat, something like that?
We actually have three different sizes.
So our largest ones on the flagship product is like a yoga mat size, but we have a mini as well, which is around sort of your seat size.
Uh, I'm sitting on one right now to stay warm.
Got it.
And I'm assuming this is for uh it's just a more efficient way to stay warm uh when you're camping.
Like what tell me what the how how did you come up with this idea?
What what's what's the story?
Originally, um I I grew up internationally.
Uh I had parents in the humanitarian sector.
Um and it's there where I really witnessed firsthand the disparity in energy access and saw how people struggled uh in the winter to stay warm.
I moved to the UK to study product design and engineering, and that's where I designed this concept of electrical, safe electrical heating for those scenarios.
I also really hated being cold and was totally not acclimatized to the UK weather.
So the idea was and is if I'm reading with the lines for disaster relief, like you would basically instead of handing out blankets or uh, you know, you would these would be available to people and they could efficiently heat themselves by lying on these mats.
Exactly.
So instead of using gas or burning whatever they can get their hands on, this is a safe way not only for the people but for the planet too.
So Sri, uh, before we we bring in Steve, tell it tell us your question.
So originally intended for the humanitarian sector, our products are showing real traction in the outdoor camping and consumer and even healthcare sectors.
All of these uh make sense, but need focus, time, and resource.
So when your product genuinely fits multiple markets, how do you decide where to put uh your focus without losing momentum and drifting away from the reason you built this in the first place?
Uh and and it this is a for-profit business, right?
This is not a non-for-profit business.
Yeah, no, we're for-profit.
Okay.
And so I think this is part of the the challenge here as well is balancing the the fact that we are commercially led, but have a mission ultimately behind that vision as well.
And getting that balance is a tricky one.
How much does the mat cost?
So our largest is uh 295 pounds, and our smallest than mini one is 109 pounds.
Okay, I think that's probably about 150 dollars to 350, something like that at the moment of math.
But so they're they're not cheap, but they're not, but they're not out of range.
All right, Steve, I was wanting to bring you in here.
Uh Sri's making these mats, comes from a family of humanitarian aid workers.
Uh, but uh there are different use cases here, and she's trying to figure out how to keep doing what she's doing without drifting from I guess from the mission in a sense.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
I I think it's fascinating.
Um and I love that there's a real purpose behind what you do.
But at the same time, uh, you know, there needs to be an economic model to make this a reality for those in in need.
And and so this tie-in with us with this potential outdoorsy camping kind of a kind of a product might make sense.
I'm a I'm a skier, and so over the years, you know, it started with heated boots and then it became heated socks and heated gloves.
Now I have a heated vest, uh, all battery operated with rechargeable batteries.
They're incredibly effective.
They're expensive.
I mean, they're really expensive.
People pay a lot.
And so I think there's this really interesting uh way to market your product to the outdoor enthusiast who is willing to pay a lot for really good gear.
And so, and but there are a lot of also a lot of outdoor companies that that give back to the community.
So they'll give back a percentage of their revenue to different causes, which is is is is super cool.
And so I see this as a perfect fit.
You know, you can market uh to the enthusiast.
Uh they're certainly willing to uh to buy your product and you and you let them know that that not only are they getting something really great, but it's giving back to to your to your cause.
I think that's a great tie-in.
Yeah, it's uh it's good you say that because we've actually got Matt's uh at Everest Base Camp at the moment, uh keeping the that exact audience warm.
That's great.
I I agree with Steve on this.
I mean, uh you have there are so many use cases here, you know, camping.
You imagine slipping this into a a sleeping bag or a tent.
I mean people are already sleeping on these sort of inflatable you know mattresses on in tents as little ones.
Um ice fishing, mountain guides, um exactly it's endless hunters who who are hunting in in the winter even disaster preparedness kits.
I'm in California.
Everyone's got an earthquake kit.
I think people will will find all kinds of uses.
I mean I can imagine outdoor sporting events, you know, having the small one where you sit on one of these maps.
Yes.
And that would make a huge difference.
Exactly.
So there are all kinds of use cases and I think that the it's not one or the other.
It's not about oh I should only do this.
I I think that you you gotta you know this you gotta build a sustainable business.
So you need to get into those places where people are gonna spend the money on them.
And then over time you can have a some creative program where where you give them away or maybe you bake that in where you know for every 10 sold or 100 sold or 50 sold we we give one away because once you achieve scale then you can you can do two businesses.
You can have the mission sort of nonprofit side, and you've got the for-profit side where people are actually love this thing and are using it for all their their fun outdoor activities.
That's great.
I I love this idea how how how will uh production occur?
Do you have facilities now that can scale this?
Yeah, absolutely.
We've chosen specific manufacturers.
Everything's contracted that they can scale with us.
So from originally making samples through to uh tens and thousands of units.
Um and all the production is actually based in Europe as well.
And presumably, I mean, these get pretty warm, right?
Like you can uh I mean, let's say you're ice fishing in Minnesota, you know, and it's like minus 10, and you're in a tent with one of these things, uh, it's going to keep you warm.
Yeah, absolutely.
We've done lab testing uh to negative uh 20 here in the UK and sort of like climate control chambers.
Uh but on the ground, we we've had units in we have units in Ukraine, um, and that gets to negative 20 quite easily.
Um so we've had the real world and lab testing in those really harsh conditions.
Um same with Everest and along the Himalayan regions, you b yeah, you get extremely cold temperatures.
It's amazing.
That's a good thing.
You know, as a as a user of uh battery operated socks and and gloves and things, I like to make sure that that I extend the life.
And so I always adjust it not so that I feel the warmth, but that I don't get cold.
And there's a difference there, right?
If you if you turn it, turn it on to a temperature where you're actually feeling warm, it drains it pretty quickly.
But you can adjust it so you don't get cold and uh and it lasts a little bit longer.
Well, um actually there's no need to do that with our mats because we have built-in sensors, they automatically regulate yourself.
So you can have it on Max, but it won't be drawing constant power from your battery source because it will keep you sustained at that temperature through the feedback system.
That's cool.
Amazing.
Amazing technology.
And uh, I mean, it seems like there's also an opportunity to uh partner with some of these expeditions.
You say you're you've already at Ever Space Camp.
I mean, I would look I would look out for like polar expeditions also, or like Antarctic expeditions, and see if you can partner with you know some of these people who are really um you know posting about their tra travels and their adventures, um, you know, and blogs and on and and and in social media because that's a just another cool thing to be part of, right?
To be affiliated with.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
Matt Zero is the name of the brand.
Congratulations, Sri.
Um, good luck with it.
Thanks for calling in.
Been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Super cool.
Yeah, thank you.
So so, Steve, you ski with all of that stuff, and I'm thinking, I'm thinking, like, how cold do you get?
I mean, you know, the technology of I don't get cold.
But but the but the jackets that are made today are and and the clothing is so good, the quality is so high now.
But you're wearing like battery-powered socks.
Well, so so yeah, my my feet do get cold, but the the vest is an interesting one.
So, you know, when you're when you're active and you're in the sun and it's the middle of the day, you don't have you don't have the vest on.
But as soon as it starts to get cloudy, or you're in the in the shade and you're sitting on a chair lift and it stops and it's 15 minutes, like you start to get it.
And you turn it on, and it really helps you.
It's really cool.
This is a this is a great business.
I I like I like Shri's idea, and um, and again, that that it has something uh virtuous uh about it, you know, that she's giving uh to humanitarian efforts is I think uh a real plus.
Yeah, and it can make camping even even better, right?
Like I get freezing cold in the tent, so there you go.
Sure.
All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller.
Stay with us.
I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Steve Ells, founder of Chipotle, and let's bring in our next caller.
Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi, I'm John Rarick.
I'm calling from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, but I spend most of my time on Abruzzo, Italy, where I'm the owner of Cantina di Rosina, an organic vineyard and winery in southern Abruzzo.
Awesome.
Thanks for calling in, John.
Okay, so you own a winery in in Italy.
Tell me a little bit about telling me the story.
So my mother's family were major producers in the 1800s and early 1900s in southern Abruzzo of fine wines.
And then World War One comes along, and Italy gets pretty beat up.
And when my grandfather returns from World War One, nothing's growing.
There's a disease that has hit most of Europe's vines called Floroxia, a bug that affected many of the vineyards.
So they literally just packed up and abandoned the entire business and came to New York and Philadelphia and chose other occupations and raised a family.
Then 100 years later to the date, I went back and bought back the house and the vineyards and replanted everything.
Wow, wow, amazing.
And so now you're producing wine on that original site.
How much wine are you producing a year?
Yeah, so our first year we produced 500 cases of both red and rose.
And I kept it small the first year on purpose so that when we brought it here to the States, I could really, you know, use it to develop the brand, get into restaurants, get into retail, specifically in the Northeast, where there's a high concentration not only of Italian Americans, but also of Bruceesi Americans.
So the wine was well received.
There this year we're we're producing 15,000 cases.
Oh wow.
So we're really amping it up because about 80% of our volume is in the U.S.
And the opportunity clearly lies in the U.S.
for us.
Yeah.
And wine, alcohol is is is uh heavily regulated.
It's gonna go state by state.
So do you are you distributing it all over the United States right now?
Currently, we're in New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Florida.
And I've got a growth plan mapped out over the next five years so that we can manage that because with growth also comes an addition of sales force that I have to put in the field.
And also I need to be there to oversee it because I'm not a winemaker by trade.
Um I was smart enough to know I needed to bring in a team of professional agronomists, winemakers in Italy to help make sure that everything was running.
My background is really in sales and marketing.
So I'm back and forth quite often, but that's really where I'll be putting most of my focus.
Got it.
Okay.
And before we bring in Steve, tell us uh your question for us.
You know, no surprise, I think everybody knows that the wine industry in general, alcoholic beverages, the consumption in the US has really been experiencing a big decline.
We're also seeing a lot of competition from new places like cocktails, hard seltzers, and even now we're seeing cannabis infused drinks coming to market, right?
So all this new competition and Gen Z in particular is just drinking much less.
So, how do I market to a generation of wine consumers to really start to cultivate that next generation that'll allow us to, you know, continue to thrive while we wait for the pendulum to swing back in our direction?
Yeah.
All right.
Important question, a big question.
Um, Steve, else I want to bring you in.
Um before we answer the question, you do you have any any questions yourself, Rajan?
So um one thing I think is is is interesting.
There's an interesting parallel, and that is, you know, you you um are marketing something now that that doesn't have as much demand as it once did.
Um, but with Chipotle, there really wasn't a demand for what we were offering.
What we were offering was very different from typical fast food.
Uh the price point was much higher.
I mean, back in 1993, think about fast food menus.
Uh Taco Bell's menu uh was categorized by 59, 79, and 99 cent items.
McDonald's had a dollar menu.
Um, things were bundled and and named by number.
You ordered a number one, and if you wanted to, you know, make it big, you said supersize it.
And then along comes Chipotle.
I mean, we had to really teach people that they had choices and they had to work with the with the servers behind the counter to get their item.
I mean, even something as basic as where to go when they walked in the restaurant.
I mean, remember, in a fast food restaurant, the first thing you did was walk to the cash register.
We asked people to to walk first to the to the food offerings.
And so we had to lead customers one by one.
The way I differentiated and built the business was by developing these one-on-one relationships with our customers.
And by the time I retired 27 years later, I think we had well over a million customers a day.
So you'd think about do you really build individual uh uh relationships with individual customers?
And and the answer is sort of yes, you do.
Um if you're going to differentiate your product or your offering, I think it starts with one on one personal relationships.
And then customers do the speaking for you and help to differentiate your offering or or your product.
John, I have a question for you.
Do you do a newsletter at all?
Have you done anything like that?
We do, and we we we capture email addresses on our site.
Great.
So we have an opt-in list, and we'll do a qu a monthly newsletter.
Yep.
And I try to make it very personal so that people see our journey.
Because I I, you know, um people tell me I have a story that's a little unusual.
Yeah, I let me let me offer a suggestion around that.
So I I think the story is uh interesting, very interesting, a family story and and compelling.
When it comes to your newsletter, I think what what's critical, and this is something that I think a lot of people make a mistake around newsletters, is that they don't, they think more about using it as a branding opportunity rather than really great content or information.
So we do newsletter for this show, and I don't use it to promote the show.
Of course, I want people to listen to it, but I really want it to be a resource for ideas, strategies, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think if you use the newsletter in that way, it could really it's you it's you want it to be something people read.
You know, people know Tuscany, they know Sicily, nobody knows about Abruzzo Wines in the United States.
I mean, some people do, but most people don't, right?
And so that that that there's a story to tell there.
What do you what do I eat this with?
What um what are some interesting cooking tips?
How should I taste these things?
That's that's the first thing.
The second thing is you're right, it's a hard time.
I'm in the Bay Area, I'm in Sonoma County all the time.
Small wineries are closing or consolidating.
And it's unclear if it's a long-term trend or something temporary, right?
Uh and the hope, of course, is that it's that it's temporary.
Um, but it, you know, you're also seeing some interesting trends with certain kinds of celebrities, particularly athletes.
I would also think this is just a uh a shot in the dark idea, but I would think about trying to send identify select players on NBA teams, NFL teams, and send them some of this wine and see if you get a response.
You know, I mean you're you're looking at what what LeBron James is doing with wine, and a lot of uh really influential basketball players are even buying their own wineries.
But I think that could be an interesting um thing to try out, especially when you're talking about something different, which is Abruzzo is different, right?
It's a it's a for a lot of people it's a discovery.
And and that that's where I think you have the opportunity.
Yeah.
Steve, any any final thoughts or advice for John?
Yeah.
I I I like I like that uh the idea of of finding people you can uh partner with to help promote the brand.
You know, obvious is is uh partnering with restaurants, being well-known chefs to feature your wine, you know, maybe inviting them out to the property, uh hosting them for dinners and and uh events and um helping them understand your story and and they can in turn share your story with their diners.
You know, I often notice that when there is a story behind the wine and especially a personality and maybe a family legacy, people tend to perk up.
I think wine tends to be uh a very uh sort of personal uh uh uh experience for folks.
And and I think that avoiding traditional kinds of marketing uh probably makes it more authentic and uh and more desirable.
Yeah, for sure.
I you know, John, I just went to a wine dinner uh at a wonderful restaurant hosted by the wine maker.
It was for it was a friend of mine, but he invited, you know, the top sort of uh m members of the club, which I'm sure you've got members of the club, and it was very special because he he brought out wines that they don't sell, you know, and and and wines that are still in the process of of you know of being aged.
And it was really fascinating to have that experience.
So I'm sure there are things like that that you are thinking about doing or doing, but it's really, you want to right now really lean into that that group.
You know, the people who who are gonna be subscribers to the club, uh, that's recurring revenue.
You know that.
And I think building it out to get young people to drink it is a is a different challenge, but that will happen over time, uh especially as you figure out ways to tell the story using social media, of course, even TikTok.
I mean, you know, book talk, right?
Who who people thought people were done reading books, all of a sudden book talk happens and a whole new, you know, slew of writers have have become extremely successful.
So I I think there are some interesting ways to try and do it.
You know, traditionally people say, oh, well, wine isn't accessible, and young people feel intimidated by that.
I don't think that's true.
I think young people want an experience, they want a story.
And if it's about tasting Ubruzzo, you know, the terroir, the the the soil, the air, the salinity, whatever it is, um, that that that does work.
It's not gonna work right away with everybody, but it's gonna work with enough people where you start to build brand awareness.
Well, thank you.
We're gonna focus then on what I'm hearing from both of you is build an emotional connection with that audience.
Yeah and really just can just keep at it.
Yeah, 100%.
I I think so.
John Rerika, the brand is called Cantina di Rossina.
Good luck.
Thanks for calling him, man.
John, good luck.
Thanks so much.
What a great story.
Um and you know, I I would not be afraid that just because the the the current trend shows that there's less consumption, I would not be afraid to get into that business uh if you're passionate about it and you have this sort of legacy connection.
I think that's that makes for a great story.
And plus, I think he really enjoys it.
He really enjoys this the lifestyle.
So uh 100%.
You know, that's that's part of it.
And and look, there are all of these, you know, they're challenges, right?
And headwinds in the industry and with alcohol in general, but at the end of the day, it's about people around table, you know, just being together.
And wine is often part of that.
Exactly.
Steve, before I let you go, uh one question that I ask all of our guests you've been on, which is if you could go back to, you know, when you you were young and starting Chipotle out and you could give yourself advice, now that you know everything you know, what do you think would have been helpful?
So, you know, I was so maniacally focused on the business.
I was there from morning to night, you know, at least the first year without taking days off.
I mean, the only days I had off were the days we closed Christmas, Thanksgiving.
Um I would have tried to live a more balanced life.
I think I was I was a little insular also, right?
It was just so focused.
And you know, and I and I and I argue that that that was contributing to the success of the business.
And I think, well, maybe maybe I missed something.
Maybe it could have been even bigger had I been more balanced.
And anyway, that's just sort of like personal reflection.
Now I think I have a more balanced life.
I still work hard, but I also take time for more time for friends and family and reflection.
Yeah, it's great advice.
It's hard to do when you're building something, but you're right.
I mean, it is critical.
Exactly.
That is Steve Ells.
Uh, he's the founder of Chipotle.
Uh, Steve, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Guy, always a pleasure to be on.
Thanks for having me.
And by the way, if you haven't heard our original Chipotle episode, you've got to go check it out.
It's really a fascinating story.
Uh, and here's one of my favorite moments from that episode.
Over a one-month period, 52 people uh got sick with E.
coli.
Were you freaking out?
Well, freak I don't know if freaking out is the right the right way to describe it.
Um I mean, it was just it was all-encompassing.
I mean, it was it was like it was really intense.
You know, no you wouldn't wish this on anybody.
You know, that anyone would get sick from the food that that you serve them is really a tough thing.
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.
And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter.
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This episode was produced by Chris Messini with music composed by Ramtin Arablui.
It was edited by John Isabella.
Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez.
Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Katherine Seifer, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Nor Gill, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Deva Grant, and Elaine Coates.
I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to how I built this.