# Leadership, Purpose, and Productivity in Business and Social Impact

**Podcast:** LEITWOLF Podcast - Leadership, Führung & Management
**Published:** 2026-04-05

## Transcript

I get inspired by people, and what inspires me most is passion, I think.
Because passion is infectious.
What a great founder needs very often is just money to get on to build his or her idea, you know.
Yeah, dear Light Wolf listener.
Welcome to today's very very special interview.
It's my great pleasure today to have a conversation with one of the most versatile and impactful humans and leaders I've ever met in my life.
He will introduce himself in a moment.
Till has worked in global consumer goods, beauty, and in NGOs.
With us today here in the Lightwolf Podcast, Till Warnbeck, former leader at PNG, at Vella, ex-CEO at Welt Hunger Hilfe, and founder at Impact.
Dear Till, in the name of thousands of people, it's my huge pleasure to say warm welcome to the Lightwolf Podcast.
Hi Stefan, thanks very much for having forward for weeks to host you are having an impactful, versatile leadership career.
And I'm really looking forward to listening to learning and to you sharing your experience with the community.
I always like to start with the person.
I know a little bit.
We have some common professional roots.
We recently had some really nice deep encounters in personal or business context.
And I'd like to start with who you are or more specifically who you were as a teenager.
Oh and you assume there's a difference between the two I I guess there probably is actually um I think I was actually quite boring as a teenager.
I was uh I I guess I was a diligent student um not very radical in any direction really um and um I was quite curious as a person at the time but uh but I think my view of the world was rather limited um and that started opening up a little later so the teenage years I don't I don't know when does teenage start I guess when it's teens right so 13 onwards um the the funny thing is I don't have many memories of this um I guess um the my very active memories start when I was 16 or so, and it was pretty run of the mill.
I mean, I I I come from northern northern Germany.
I grew up in a uh in a loving family, which uh ceased being a family actually roundabout when I was eight because my parents uh got divorced, and I'm the single child of divorced parents, so not the most uh not the busiest uh home and not not the most lively home, I guess, uh for one.
Um, and I just um went to school, did my things, and at some point when I was 16, I felt like the world was a little bit too small, and I decided to um uh to move to Italy.
Um so I guess that's when it when it all really started and it kind of set me on a trajectory.
So, first 15, 16 years growing up in a in a small town in Lower Saxony and northern Germany, which is a beautiful town to grow up in, but also a nice town to leave at some point.
Um, and then um then I moved to Italy and did my kind of A-levels there and on it went from there, I guess.
Awesome.
Didn't really answer your question, though.
Well you you you did.
Um I was in in uh lower Saxony three years later, or sorry, at the age of 19 for a military purpose.
So, whereabout in Lower Saxony was your initial home?
Um it's a town called Celle.
Um Celle is halfway between Hamburg and Hanover.
In fact, my my wife's from Hamburg, so whenever I say I'm from near Hamburg, she and she's around, she says, 'Well, do you know what it's actually closer to Hanover?' Um so um, not much to show for other than it's it's a beautiful little town, and there's a nice story actually.
I was um I studied history uh afterwards a few years later, so always interested in history.
And and the story goes that in this, I think it was in the 18th century, uh, Celle, which was a fairly small place, had the choice of uh getting a university um or a prison.
Um, and the town elders apparently said, Well, if if we if we have to have young men in our city, then let's have them behind bars.
So they opted against the university and um and decided to have a prison instead.
So that I guess is all you need to know about Celle.
Interesting choice.
So, two questions following from here.
What inspired your curiosity and interest in history?
Um I don't know, in a way, I guess I've been post-rationalizing that a little bit, but but I I guess deep down the I I just wanted to know how the world ticks, you know, and what makes people tick and understand the world.
And and I guess I still think that the best way to understand the world is to look back and see what what actually shaped uh certain decisions.
And and I found that this this idea, this look backwards is really powerful if you want to look forward because you know what you're starting with.
So, in a way, if if you want to understand how people tick and how the world behaves, looking back is uh is not a bad place to start.
Completely agree.
Now, looking at your CV, you managed to get accepted in one of the very few most selective and most well renowned universities in the world, and you took a PhD in Oxford.
If you now think back from your current perspective, right?
Having had some part of a very accomplished uh career, both in corporate and as an NGO founder and leader.
What has your history PhD at Oxford given you?
Um good question.
I I think first of all, it it gave me what three more years of freedom.
Um I actually I I think I went to Oxford not so much for the PhD, but more for the ability to roll every day, um, which was lovely.
Um I was always very passionate, but never very good, unfortunately, at doing it.
But there was a time when I wrote about 11 times uh a week.
Um so that was cool.
Um, and that was um uh that's certainly what it's given me.
The the other thing is it is just this idea of intellectual freedom and and the ability to to meet people from all not from all walks of life, but from all kind of uh fields and uh and just talk and live together and and do sports and party together and discuss that was an that was an amazing experience.
And it's Oxford is a wonderful university because the ratio between students and professors is uh is is one of a kind.
I mean, I would meet my professor every week um and uh write an essay, and he would discuss it with me uh one-on-one.
Um, and I think one of the things I've learned actually is is to focus and and find out kind of what's or reduce things to the core.
And and I remember uh one of the first times I I met this professor and wrote an essay about something I can't remember, something kind of early modern history of philosophy.
He said, That's good.
Now cut it in half, please.
Uh so I went back and cut my whatever kind of 12-page essay in half, came back with six pages and said, Okay, that's better, cut it in half again.
Um so went back and cut it down to three pages, and and that was a really powerful message.
And I guess in a way, it prepared me for the famous Procter Gamble one pages.
Um, but but this idea of spending a lot of time to simplify things, um, is one that that I think is incredibly powerful in all walks of life, but in the business context in particular.
So that's that's I guess more so friends and sports and and kind of intellectual curiosity.
I got that out of it.
The other thing is when I look at the what I did my doctorate on, which was kind of early modern history of ideas and the enlightenment in the 18th century.
We don't have to talk about this, it's actually quite boring.
But um, there is uh something in there that um is um is, I guess, shaped my my path a little bit, and it's Adam Smith.
Um so part of my doctorate was was on kind of economic thought.
Um, and Adam Smith, who wrote his um Wealth of Nations in the 18th century, and one of those images that he used was of the baker who bakes bread not out of altruism, but out of self-interest.
And still everybody kind of gets fed at the end of the day.
And this idea that you can actually harness self-interest and use business in order to feed his community is something that took me a while to realize, but but in a way it kind of I guess shaped me or set me off on that path of doing what I do now, which is essentially using the tools of business in order to um to drive social change.
So I guess if you want, you could kind of trace that all the way back to my doctorate.
Interesting.
I don't know, maybe it's a bit of a tenuous link, but but I guess um it could be me.
Still, I think it's a highly relevant skill to reduce a thought to the core.
A skill I see in successful people and also in successful leaders.
So I find this very, very powerful.
Yeah, cut it in half, cut it in half again.
I love it.
Now, when we look at today, what inspires you most in life?
What inspires me most in life?
I I get inspired by people, and and what inspires me most is passion, I think.
Um, because passion is infectious.
Um, and and either kind of it it invites me along to follow somebody else's passion, or it gives me something to react to if I don't uh agree.
But finding passion is something that I find very energizing and inspirational.
Um, I think on a more general level, whenever I see people who are really good at something, and it really doesn't matter what it is that inspires me, and it could be it could be kind of a manual skill, it could be something work-related, it could be just an ability to connect with people or anything really.
I I just love to see when people have found their thing and have become good at it.
Yeah, so that inspires me.
Thanks a lot.
Listening to what I'm learning right now, young man deciding to relocate to Italy at the age of 16, which shows which I interpret as confidence, strength, curiosity, readiness to go out of the comfort zone, interest to get out of the comfort zone.
That's quite amazing.
So you could interpret this as you led yourself at a young age.
Yeah, 16 is young, and leadership is in fact the frame of this entire Lightwolf podcast.
So seeing you as a teenager, relocating, seeing you, how you lead yourself into that environment in Oxford, seeing you to join the company where we both worked, and then observing you, how you passionately go for your cause.
One of your core strengths is to be a strong leader.
So let's start with a question on why.
If you think about your life, why is good leadership important to you, Till?
And what does it mean to you?
Well, first of all, I'm I'm not sure.
I mean, you just assuming I'm a good leader.
I have my doubts, right?
Um, and and I still remember when I kind of first I got my first kind of appraisal at Procter Gamble, kind of two years in or so.
Um, and it said something like Till is a natural leader, and I felt all kind of uh fired up.
I thought, gee, fantastic.
I mean, the future is mine, sort of thing.
But in a way, it kind of went downhill from there because I'm getting increasingly I I increasingly question my leadership abilities actually.
Um, and uh because I I've seen them work a few times, but I've seen them work not work probably as much, and I think the the older I get the more I question whether that's actually true.
But um, so so I don't know, I don't I don't know if I'm a good leader, but um, I I know that leadership is important for me um in my life, uh, or at least the way I would I would define it.
And for me, leadership has always been about change.
My definition of leadership is take the responsibility for change because if you don't want to change anything, management is enough, right?
You don't you don't need leadership.
Um and again, it doesn't really matter to me what you want to change.
Um, just saying, okay, that that is my thing, and I'm now gonna try to change it and get others to help me along the way.
I think that's that's ultimately leadership, and and it also explains why leadership I think is important, because we I don't want to continue to live in a world as it is today.
I I want to live in a world that gets better, you know, and leave it, leave it in a better place than I found it.
And that doesn't work if you defend the status quo.
So um I guess the the answer of why leadership is important for me is quite easy.
The the question of my own leadership is a little more difficult, I guess.
Thank you for sharing this.
So a strong relation to change is an inherent element of your perception of your own definition of leadership.
In my view, everyone has a slightly different view on what it is, but it resonates a lot with me to describe, to hear you describe why it matters to you.
Yeah, and in that regard, so people willing and able to lead change in the world.
How do you recognize a leadership talent in another person?
I think good question.
Getting things done, it all starts with delivering results.
And if you're all talk and no action, then what's the point of leadership?
So seeing results for me is probably the first test of leadership.
And then if I look at someone say, Well, how did you deliver these results?
Was it just you sitting in your uh in your office and not talking to anyone, then I would say you're probably a fantastic contributor, um, an individual contributor, but not necessarily leader who needs to achieve things through others.
So if I I file if I see results and see that they've been created by a group of people, then chances are there's going to be a leader somewhere who made that happen.
Um so that's that's kind of if I look at the outcome.
If I look at an individual person, I think the the most critical skill in anyone and in leaders in particular is coachability, uh being able to listen to feedback and take it on board.
And I've seen so many people who at some point think that they got it, they kind of know how things are done.
Uh, and that's that's typically when they stop growing.
Uh and people who who consciously go out and and want to get feedback and not agree with everything, but just take it in their stride and say, interesting, let me let me take that on board and use that for their own change.
I think that is the that's probably the single most critical skill I would look for in a leader is that person willing to develop as a leader.
Yeah, I love it.
Uh resonates a lot with me.
And in my experience, most people are coachable, some are less, and some are not.
If you look back at your career so far, to let your life so far.
Have you ever come across a person who you helped to become more coachable and more receptive to feedback?
I I guess the the easiest or the best examples that come to mind are people who already were coachable, right?
Because it made the whole process much easier and much more straightforward.
Have I managed to kind of make someone more coachable?
Um, I don't I don't know.
Maybe they weren't coachable because I approached them the wrong way, and then I kind of found the right way to approach them, and suddenly things worked.
So I'm I'm thinking of a few examples now of I think where I just got things wrong at the get-go, um, and the way I was trying to help was just not very helpful.
So trying to kind of step back and say, Well, it's not about me trying to help, it's about understanding how that other person wants to be helped and what the other person needs that that made made me change my approach, which in turn then made them more coachable.
But I think it was probably more me fixing my mistakes as the coach as me trying to kind of change the coachy, if you see what I mean.
Yeah.
And it may have been a long time ago, but and it should be anonymous.
But do you still remember a moment that you would be able to share where you feel like you got it wrong the first time around, you changed your approach, and then you you saw someone grow.
Well, I've I've got this wonderful example of just great success of a team that I was leading at the time.
So it's not individual coach, uh not a coach coachy relationship, but more kind of a leader and team relationship.
Does that qualify as well?
Shall I had just been appointed to my first sales manager position.
Um, I had uh I'd started out uh in in marketing, I'd worked in marketing for a long time, or 10 years or so, and then I wanted to broaden my skill level and and volunteered for an assignment in sales, and it was actually kind of two steps down from director to kind of uh first-level leader.
And I I got this, I was assigned this this team of sales reps in northern Germany, and um and northern Germany at the time, or Germany was split into I think it was eight sales regions, and northern Germany, my region was number 18 of 18, so bottom.
Um and I thought that's a perfect place to start because it can't get any worse.
Um so I started, but it did get worse because we essentially fell off a cliff because I was kind of this arrogant, cocky kind of guy from headquarters, uh, never spent a day in the field.
And um, and then I I went in the sales team and said, okay, let's develop a sales strategy, you know, and we should measure ourselves on this and that uh kind of key performance indicator.
And they just stared at me and said, What is he thinking?
What is he anyway?
So um there was just a total total mismatch between what I was trying to do and what they were trying to do.
Um, and um, and it was actually quite scary because this the business fell off a cliff, and three months later we lost, I don't know, 20% of the business.
And um so after a while I thought, okay, but that's clearly not working.
Um and I remember I was jogging at the uh we'd we relocated to Germany by then, um, and I was uh jogging along the river Elbe uh where Störtebecker got beheaded, the the famous German pirate.
Um and um and I thought, okay, what what did he actually do?
And there's this this saying that he was beheaded and he continued running without a head uh past his shipmates, and the deal was that if the every person he passed would be spared his life.
So I thought, okay, there's something here about this guy, this pirate, who's actually quite inspiring.
So um it kind of got me thinking about uh pirates in general.
So I asked my sales reps if we could meet, not in the general hotel that was kind of next to the highway uh where they would drive with their corporate cars, but um, we rented a ship in Hamburg Harbor, um and um it was the fire, an old fire ship.
Uh so we got there, and I had a I brought a flag, it's a pirate flag, all a bit cheesy in retrospect.
Um, and uh but basically I said, guys, I think I got it all wrong.
Can we please start again?
And pretend the last three months didn't happen.
And they looked at me and said, Okay, that's something again what was C up to.
Um but but basically, and I I think that was my that's kind of relates to the point I said before about coachability.
It wasn't them, it was me, right?
And and I said, I think I got this all wrong.
And I I thought that I had to teach you something about sales, but but I don't because you already know how to sell, and I couldn't because I've never sold in my life.
So, how about we do this differently?
How about you tell me what what what you think works and where you need my help?
Um, and um and this was October um or September, October, I think it was.
Um, so a little bit of a shaky time until Christmas because they kind of looked at me and said, Okay, now he's kind of totally gone gone crazy and is talking about pirates and raising flights and stuff.
Um but by the end of the year, one of the sales reps, and we were talking about next year's planning, and I said, Okay, guys, so what do you think?
What can we deliver next year?
And um, and one guy called Ollie said, you know, I think we can grow next year.
And I said, Well, we haven't grown in seven years.
What why do you think we can grow?
And growth meant kind of more business, more turnover next year compared to this year.
And he said, Well, I think you know, we can we can do it.
And then kind of his colleague, Toby, chipped in and said, I think Ollie's right, I think we can grow.
And I thought, oh, okay, fine, let's grow, you know.
Um, and the what then happened was that I think they found faith in their own abilities again.
Um, and and I changed my role from someone trying to teach them how to sell to a facilitator, and and basically kind of I I looked at basically looked at the system and what was being kind of incentivized and and kind of what kind of what did you have to sell in order to reach the next kind of bonus threshold and get more money.
And basically I was sitting there like a like a then a race engineer in Formula One, um, telling kind of the drivers, okay, break at the next corner, now accelerate and now drop in and have change the tires kind of thing, you know.
And they did driving, and I just was there and I kind of knew the system, and I could tell them, well, sell more shampoo and then that's gonna get you closer to your next kind of bonus bracket and and it's a beautiful story because then suddenly kind of the business started picking up and it did to such a degree that by the end of that year remember we were kind of uh 18 out of 18 yeah um and we won the national sales cup wow uh kind of best sales team of the year um and we marched into this annual kind of sales rep meeting 300 or 400 sales reps um and and we walked in and we were wearing t-shirts with uh team stürtebecker on the back um oh wow what a beautiful experience yeah uh and it was really it was totally heartwarming um yeah and and it just humbled me so much by saying you know what my my role wasn't to kind of tell them anything it my role was to kind of let them get on with what they knew they could do anyway.
Um, and um it's probably still I would exclude the last couple of days, but probably still the best two years of my working life um also that that kind of experience.
And is it is it about coaching?
I don't know.
Is it about leadership?
Probably.
Um, but but it's mainly about just having fun as a team and and being able to believe in in ourselves again.
Awesome.
I think there are some profound messages in there, Till that uh resonate a lot with me.
Team, yes, one it's all about team, but also the way you led.
I do perceive a quite substantial change in leadership from the last millennium to this millennium, particularly over the last 20, 25 years.
When I look at the the generation of my father, leadership was top down, right?
People were telling, talking down at people, the knowledge was at the top, uh, responsibility was at the top, and people were just waiting to be told.
That's long gone.
Uh, it's not motivating, it's way too slow, and many other downsides in my perspective.
And I think what you've done brilliantly is in a very short time, not sure whether anyone told you to change the way you let them, you just turn it on its head, and you started leading with your ears rather than with your mouth, which is awesome.
And in many, many situations, maybe not in every, but in the vast majority, is just much more impactful leadership than telling people what to do.
So, well done.
Congratulations to winning the award a year later, and maybe even more to that warm emotional compliment uh expressed by the team wearing the Störtebecker t-shirt, which must have been a wonderful moment for everyone, including yourself, Till.
So well done.
One last question on this example.
What made you change your approach from the initial approach to the second approach that was much more successful?
What made you change?
Well, it clearly was working.
And I I could I could see it in the numbers.
And if the numbers show that it's not working, you've got to change something, right?
So and I was a bit out of options, I guess.
Um great.
As simple as that.
Love the example.
Now let's talk about corporate and NGO.
Understanding you even better now, uh, historian.
I always knew sharpness speed and seeing your posts with impact, having seen you on stages, as I knew all this.
Um, but now seeing your path even more clearly and knowing that you have been a leader in one of the most global companies on the planet.
Already years ago, our first employer, Proctren Gamble, sold consumer goods to households to the more than five billion users, so a truly global company, competitive, makes mistakes, but um strong company, and then on the other hand, in NGOs, yeah, CEO at Welt Hungerhilfe, founder of Impact.
If you compare corporate and NGO, let's first take one direction.
What can corporates learn from NGOs?
Um I think probably how to build purpose into employees' work.
And I would say it doesn't even need to be built in, it's naturally built in.
People in NGOs tend to be purpose-driven and tend to be defined by their purpose.
And what what we've always struggled with in the corporate world is how can we instill the sense of purpose in people and come up with uh with ridiculous random things like improving the world in small but meaningful ways, and and you kind of relate it to essentially selling more shampoo, which don't get me wrong, it's it's probably better than kind of saying I want to earn as much money as possible, but it's it's not really much of a purpose.
Now, if you if if you fundamentally believe in whatever it is, human rights or sending girls to school or fighting hunger, that that is really deep, right?
And and you don't have to convince anyone because chances are that they they know what they're doing, and there's a real power in leveraging purpose.
Um and I would still argue, even though it's gone out of fashion, that finding purpose not by tying it to the product you sell but finding purpose in in your approach to business um can actually be a huge driver for for corporates now that was probably a bit cryptic so let me give you an example I'm thinking of Paul Pallman um when he became CEO of Unilever uh back in when was it 2009 um yeah so some time ago and um and it's it's a really fascinating story of a guy who says okay I'm gonna stop quarterly reporting and if shareholders want quarterly reports well sell your shares and go somewhere else so that that was a gutsy move um but I think what he then did with Unilever at the time was to say well I've I've gotta let's decouple growth from environmental impact and I want to double the business but keep the environment environmental impact kind of uh the same and and he started by by instilling a lot of kind of sustainability or kind of driving constant sustainability measures into the into the company.
And I think what it did at the time, it was financially successful, but it also made kind of uh Unilever uh a top employer, and people actually felt they were part of something bigger.
Um, so even though that playbook is no longer valid, and and I think we we've seen quite a bit of a turn on all of this, it's an example of how how purpose, if done right and if you really believe it, can actually change the course of a company.
Uh, if by purpose you you just mean some random words that that make you sell more stuff, then it doesn't work.
So it's a very long answer to a short question.
But I think having kind of truly trying to understand whether capitalism can play a role that goes beyond increasing shareholder value is something that is some that that can drive results.
Um and and it's something that we can learn from the NGO sphere.
Now, the purpose thing though, uh is a bit of a double-edged sword.
Because I well, I thought that as I was now moving into the social sector, and suddenly purpose was so front and center for everyone, and people identified so thoroughly with their jobs, I thought this is heaven.
I mean, that's what I've always looked for.
Kind of can't people kind of identify more, can they bring the whole selves to the job and stuff?
And you think uh it's it's positive, and part of it is positive, but it it uh there's a real risk in this, and I think the risk is that if you identify too much with your job, it becomes more difficult to take feedback because what what we've learned, or what I've learned is when I give feedback, effective feedback is never personal, right?
So you say, I'm not I I don't criticize you, Stefan.
You I're I don't mean that you're a bad person, I'm just now reacting to how you show up at work, or something that I've noticed, you know.
Let's work together how to improve the outcome.
And and you probably and I've learned to separate this and not take things personally, and that's why I can take feedback.
Now, if you don't distinguish between yourself and your work, if the identification is too close, or actually is 100%, then how on earth can you not take feedback personally?
Yeah, because this whole idea of don't take it personally is a contradiction in terms.
It's like, well, are you telling me I don't I'm not dedicated enough to my work?
So I think what what's really powerful on on the face um of things, um, identification with a job becomes a real uh hindrance uh to learning and improvement, um, because you do need to be able to separate your work from from the from your person.
So, in a way, I was um asking answering the question of what can corporates learn from NGOs, but but I think the opposite is also true.
I think NGOs can learn something from uh from corporates, which is don't overdo this identification thing.
Yeah, it's a very powerful thought.
I um both resonate a lot with me.
Yeah, the purpose example you share about Paul, I've read his book, is right here, I've I've seen it with him, is indeed one of the most powerful, the most impactful examples I've ever come across.
Maybe you could cite Patagonia, a case that I'm less aware of.
I've I've just heard about, where really getting a corporate team in the Unilever case, an entire corporate company rally around and assemble around a deep purpose, uh, is definitely something that can travel from NGO to uh corporates.
And I never thought about what you say, but it immediately resonates with me.
The learning traveling the other way, to always be able to distinguish between the purpose and the person and the work and the person, so that while taking feedback, you don't get hurt and you you you can continue to live both lives, it's not just one life.
Amazing.
Now, a few questions building on on this field, although more geographically skewed.
How much of your current work to as the founder of impact happens in Africa?
Um well, all the exciting stuff happens in Africa.
Um and um and unfortunately, uh most of it happens without me, but by design, because I think that the last thing that Africa needs is yet another old white man uh sharing his ideas about how things should work.
Um, so very briefly, what we do as an organization, we're kind of a non-profit that thinks it's a venture capital fund and uh and convert donations into investments into African startups, and that has two different elements.
One is kind of get the money to invest, which is donations, and then importantly, kind of find great founders that you can support and give them money so that they can create lots of jobs coming out of it because the job is the best way out of poverty.
So, my job is to get the money, which is a bit tedious, but the job of my colleagues in Africa is to find these fantastic founders and um and help them grow and help them build businesses.
And I'm always a bit envious um of them for being able to talk with dozens and hundreds of founders and and actually seeing them grow and helping them.
And yes, I'm I'm also I try to be as involved as I can be, but uh but the really exciting stuff, the one that makes a difference is happening on the African continent.
And and it's happening without us.
That that's the beauty of the the kind of development work that we do is they really don't need us.
What they need, what a great founder needs very often is just money to get on to build his or her idea, you know.
And that's probably the same across the world when a great founder says, Thanks for the advice, but really I need the money to build my business.
Um, and if you accept that and say, Well, let's let's help, you know, how can we help and and make your business more successful?
Um, it just it makes so many things so much easier because you don't have to push people, you don't have to say, Well, but look at the project proposal, and we really required you to do ABC, and then they kind of said, Yeah, okay, whatever, I'm gonna write in the project report.
Um, but but there's no alignment between kind of that and and the donor.
Um, if you have if you're an investor who chooses a company and says, Well, I'm in reinvesting in you because we believe in you and your business idea, you have perfect alignment.
Um, and you if you work with the African continent, you get out of this kind of eye-level kind of um uh issue of the rich donor and the poor beneficiary who needs to be grateful, and it becomes one of kind of an eye-level kind of investor uh founder relationship, not always 100% eye-level, but um uh but you can you actually work in the right direction and um and don't have to push your own agenda, you just back people who you think have the agenda that you want to support.
It makes things much easier, it does, and I vividly remember a moment where both you and I were invited at the same birthday party of a common friend, uh, where we were both seeing Ralph Bilhards.
Ralph, when you listen to this right now, warm greetings and thanks again for this for this invitation.
And on that wonderful um evening, a year ago or two years ago, you shared an example that struck me immediately, and stay will probably stay with me for the rest of my life because I just hadn't seen it.
Your question was, ladies and gentlemen, please have a guess.
How many humans do not have access to a toilet?
And since you asked the question in the heart of Europe, in Germany, Frankfurt, I was not surprised that me, like everybody else, we we estimated the lumber to be too low.
I probably would have guessed a million or two, a billion or two, having been in Myanmar just a few years prior.
A billion or two.
But when you said four and a half billion, it just struck me.
It changed my perception of the world with this one question, right?
And again, I don't want to get into this um environment or relationship or attitude of being a donor or giving the poor.
That's not my point at all.
But I've seen that in Asia, I've seen it in Africa.
That's something that you and I and probably many people here on the call take for granted, is not accessible to more than half of the global population.
So again, leading back, and you you said, look, we if if you now support tonight, you're not going to be donating into toilets in Africa, you're going to be investing into a company that produces toilets themselves.
Which I think is just so much more sustainable, so much smarter.
And in that particular instance, happened to happen in Africa.
Now, if you think about the African part of your experience, is leading in Africa different from leading elsewhere?
I mean, Africa is pretty big, right?
Um, a billion people, 54 countries.
So and I I just know a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of it.
Um, very difficult to generalize.
I think though that a few fundamentals still apply.
And and I would say, whatever you do, be human.
I mean, be yourself and say what you think, you know.
Uh what's this kind of um say what you do and do as you say.
And and I think authenticity and honesty go a long way in any culture.
I love it.
So, and and I think you'd be surprised about also how much kind of slack people give you when when they when they feel like okay, it's an honest guy, he's he's trying his best, you know.
He may be a bit weird, he may not know our culture, he may not understand how rude he is being in bloody German, you know.
Um but at least but but at least he's trying, you know.
Um, and and I would say that's just a general principle of of human decency.
Um, and I think that's that's the same across the world.
Now, having said that, I think there there are differences.
Like the Dutch and the Germans tend to be quite direct, um, and and Asians tend to be less direct, you know, it's about more saving face and and um don't say no because that's impolite, and then you realize afterwards that the business has collapsed and nobody uh can dare tell you.
Um, and and Africa is probably a little closer to Asia than it is to um uh to Germany, I guess.
Now, but there are differences as well.
I mean, you've got Nigerians who are just born hustlers and and they're gonna tell it to you straight, and then you've got other uh countries like Ethiopia where they they're probably much more kind of reserved and and don't share as much.
So again, difficult to generalize.
Um, what I've come across though is um there the notion of leadership in or of management, kind of appointed leaders, let's let's call them appointed leaders in in an African context, tends to be a little different.
It's kind of the the big man leadership, right?
You you're the boss, and it's your job to solve a problem.
So if you're a subordinate, you come to the boss and say, boss, here's my problem.
What should I do?
And the boss says, go left, and you go left, right?
Or the boss says, go right.
Um and and in a in a global northern context or western context context, I guess a leader would expect a subordinate to say, Well, you know, there's a wall, you decide whether you want to go left or right, you don't need me for this.
Um, so understanding that the role of a leader can sometimes be to state the obvious and say, Okay, thank you very much for telling me there's a war, and thank you for sharing the options of going left or right.
Um, I'm going to tell you to go left.
And and in a way that makes makes life a little easier for everyone because it feels like the subordinate has no license to do it and um and probably doesn't get uh it it's kind of delegating responsibility upwards, it's it's a little bit of cover my ass, I guess.
Uh, but also the boss feels good because the boss feels like okay, I've told this person to turn left and not hit the wall.
Um, and it's something that that we can laugh about, but it's it it's something that helps kind of just to be aware of, so you can kind of play with that more ancient or or with this kind of rather old-fashioned type of leadership.
So, but you see, I'm I'm beginning to to ramble a little bit because I don't have an answer.
I I don't know if if it's different.
I think at the end of the day, if if you go back to trying to understand what what people's motivations are and what they're trying to accomplish for themselves, and if you find a way not to manipulate them, but but to kind of see how what they want might connect with what you want, then I think that's that's always a fair bet of effect.
I but I don't know, you know, yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, I I completely agree.
First of all, there is no such thing as one Africa.
Um I learned that when I worked for SAB Miller, when we saw that the the beer consumption, SAB Miller was a fabulous company and working in the beer industry, that the beer consumption in South Africa was 10 times the average of the rest of Africa.
So there was in fact two Africans.
There was South Africa and the other Africa countries.
Um the other one is I I understand your perception that at least in some of the African countries, there is more the expectation of what you call big man leadership.
So, dear boss, please tell me what to do.
While one thing you just said, I just heard you say really stuck with me.
This might become the title of this podcast.
Whatever you do, be human.
Right, which is a common factor around the world.
Uh, when people ask me, Stefan, can everybody learn to lead?
My answer is no.
Almost everybody can learn to lead, but you have to have two prerequisites.
One, you need to want to learn, which is identical with your coachability definition.
And the second one is you need to like humans because we are not we are not leading machines, we're leading humans.
And and your way of saying it is this whatever you do, be human.
I love it.
So the more this conversation unfolds, the more I feel that you're and my view of leadership are very close to each other.
I know you are a humble man, you already showed your humility throughout this conversation, Till, but I'd still like you to ask you without being over humble, please.
Your path is impressive.
You have had lots of successes in your career.
Um you shared, for example, the result when you came in as a non-sales expert and took the leadership of the sales team and took them from rock bottom to winning an award.
So you have had impressive successes in your life.
Can you pinpoint one or two essential factors of success that made you successful so far?
Well, can I add a qualifier to your praise?
Um, thank you.
But uh I've screwed up about as many times as I've succeeded, right?
And I think especially in leadership, when I thought after this example, which I agree is a positive example, I thought, okay, now I know how it's done, and I tried this in kind of in a kind of NGO context, and I failed miserably because, and I think that's kind of leads me to now pinpoint what what the the kind of what made me successful uh in certain circumstances is that there needs for me to be successful, I've learned is there needs to be a willingness to change and a recognition that we can jointly be better.
Um if people are happy the way they are and don't want to change, and if I then I'm not a very good leader because I I really don't have time for standing still, you know, and and that's not necessarily a good thing.
I mean that they're very effective leaders in this context who can take the long view and say, okay, I'm gonna work with the organization and work with the structure and work with the culture and think kind of long-term change, 10 years, 20 years, and that's admirable.
Um, but that's just not me because I think like fucking hell, I mean, we're trying to fight hunger here, or we're trying to eliminate poverty, and these people are literally dying.
We've got to do something now, right?
So um, so I think for me to be effective, I need to be in that there's this concept um of what's it called, star, I think, is what situation are you in?
Are you in a start startup phase, in a turnaround phase, into a in a realignment or a sustaining success phase?
And I'm good in startups and turnarounds when the the need for action is clear, right?
I'm not good in realignment and sustaining sustaining success uh cases where the case for change is not clear, right?
And where maybe you don't want to change too much.
So I can be a change manager when change is required.
And I would argue in any startup context, by definition, change is required because we want to build something that doesn't exist before.
And in a turnaround where you think things are falling apart, then well, you'd better get your act together.
So that I think if I if I try to generalize, I've in the in the cases I've been successful, it was something along the lines of okay, let's do something different, and then I can be the one to kind of channel this.
Um and in the rest, I I just get spat out, I guess, by an organization saying don't change us, we we're fine, we we like us the way we are.
Okay.
So that's that's one.
Um the the other thing is I don't know.
That that's probably you know, um, I'm I think I'm quite good at making good people great or better, but I'm not very good at making bad people, can I say this?
Or or kind of below average people average.
I can I can make average people above average, but I can't really make below average people average.
Um, so um that's also something that that helped me understand what kinds of people do I actually want and need around me.
And and um, there's this famous saying by uh Jim Lafferty, maybe Jim is listening as well.
Hi Jim, um, you've taught me a lot.
Um, is uh he once said I can teach anything but passion, or I can coach anything but passion.
Um so that is also something that I've noticed for me to kind of respond well.
I need that initial impulse of people saying, I I want to get better here, you know.
Um and then it's a then it's really wonderful.
Then you work together and and beautiful things happen.
Um, but kind of trying to convince someone to say, please, you know, that that's that's just not me.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Understand.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's obvious to me how reflected you are.
How do you develop yourself as a human and as a leader?
I talk to my wife a lot and she helps me.
And I read, and I think reading novels is a wonderful way to kind of uh understand different perspectives.
And I would say anyone who wants to kind of develop as a leader, just read novels.
Yeah, not I I love kind of trash, kind of uh, you know, the the plain uh whatever kind of uh trashy thrillers, but but what I mean is is kind of real novels that try to put themselves into different perspectives.
I think there's a wealth that can be learned from just good literature.
Brilliant.
A few quick ones, quick questions with the call and the ask to give us quick answers as we zoom towards closing the this wonderful conversation till so quick questions section what is the best advice you've ever received oh damn it's difficult um follow your north star yeah thank you what quality do you value most in leaders I said that before coachability and passion oh in leaders ah sorry in leaders what do I value most in leaders um infectious energy yeah what is your personal go-to tool when things get stressful read a book which book podcast or quote has impressed you most recently um I just finished the book um called the island of living trees by Elif Shafak um a uh Turkish author uh who's emigrated to the UK and it's uh it's a wonderful book uh written from the perspective of a tree, a fig tree, um, which is talking about changing perspectives.
That's it's a cool book.
That's impressive.
Awesome.
And if you could change one thing about the world of work tomorrow, what would it be?
Stop busy work.
Yeah, very good was the was that too cryptic?
No.
Well, maybe describe in a sentence what busy work means to you and how you would stop it.
Just briefly.
I think it it boils down to the 80-20 rule.
Um, it's uh in every single in most areas in life, uh, 20% of input achieve 80% of outputs.
Um, and I think the same is true in work as well.
Um, you can achieve almost everything by spending very little time on it.
Um, and the rest is just being busy and trying to kind of do everything perfectly.
So if you have the choice to say, well, what actually moves the needle and only focus on those things that move the needle, I think you can double your effectiveness and productivity and work less.
Um, and I would just wish that every one of us develops the courage to say no uh to the busy work stuff that just fills our calendars and say yes to the the few things, and it's not many of them, the few things that really make a difference and double down on those.
And I think we'd all be happier, and work-life balance wouldn't be an issue anymore.
It's easy.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
Not as easy as it sounds.
Awesome.
Now, as we close the call, is there any one question or one message that you would like to share with your audience?
Um, well, you told me before that this is this is the one thing you gave me a chance to prepare about, and it's the one thing that I didn't really have much to say to.
What um um I I think what I'm trying, I'm I'm still trying to find allies to my cause.
Uh and that causes using the tools of business to make the world a better place.
Um and I think the best way to kind of develop alliances is by connecting.
So I think my request is for everyone who kind of liked what I said or disliked or disagreed, um, reach out via LinkedIn and follow me in LinkedIn, and then we start engaging.
So that's that's the one request.
Let's uh let's get talking.
Brilliant.
And I can just recommend doing so.
We will of course add your LinkedIn profile and a link to impact in the show notes here, so for ease of connection, Till.
Uh, in the name of many, many people.
It's a huge pleasure to have had you here on the call.
I learned a ton, very inspiring.
Thank you so much for being a guest on Lightworth Leadership Podcast.
Thank you, Tri van Day.
Thanks, Shapan.