# Tariff Chaos, SaaS Valuation, and Corporate Governance

**Podcast:** Pivot
**Published:** 2026-02-24

## Transcript

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It's like that little monkey who was rejected by his family and found a plushie.
I saw that, and granted, I think I was on an edible, and I'm like, that's my purpose in life is to be other people's plushie.
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.
And I'm Scott Galloway.
Scott, you're missing the blizzard.
As we tape, over 40 million people in the U.S.
are under a blizzard warning, by the way, and snow dropping three inches an hour in some locations.
It really is still going on here in New York.
Um, and it's crazy.
It's it's it's there's a lot of snow happening.
We all thought the snow was over.
Um, maybe I'll go take a walk in New York and caught walk in the Central Park and contemplate my life.
See what I would do.
Go to Shea Margot and get fucked up and established eye contact with a nice young Russian lady.
I'm getting an award tonight in Brooklyn.
I've got to go out to Brooklyn.
Of course you are.
I am.
I'm getting the governor's award.
We're getting an award tonight in Brooklyn.
That is the most Kara Swisher thing ever said.
I'm getting an award in Brooklyn.
Yes, I have to go there.
Yeah, it's for the Ambies.
What do you okay?
All right, fine.
I'll play a line.
I don't know.
It's the new podcast.
It's the Oscars of Podcast.
For being old, from the governor's award.
I thought that was the vibe.
What are those?
What is the podcast?
No, no, not those.
No, that's the oh, the The Signal Awards?
No, I don't know.
Whatever.
They're trying to make fetch happen with awards.
Two white guys with a mic.
That's called that's a podcast.
This is not the BAFTAs or the Oscars.
This is the podcast version.
And I'm getting the great contributions to podcasting awards.
Really?
I guess.
I don't know, Scott.
Anyway, here's something crazy going on.
Mexican security forces killed the leader of the Jalisco New Generation Cartel and eight other cartel members in a Mexican military operation aided by U.S.
intelligence support.
And then they went crazy, these cartels.
And they're like, they're in Puerto Vallarta, like Captain Stubing.
That's how I know Puerto Vallarta from Loveboat.
And they're like bombing the whole place.
And all these Americans have been either diverted from going there or cannot leave there.
Not just Americans, but lots of people.
And they're like attacking neighborhoods, and this footage is really something.
All these burnt cars and it's really something.
I don't know what you think about it.
The issue is it's not, I mean, it's violence, but it feels like it's more structural governance in an economic issue that's been evolving for nearly two decades.
And that is these cartels are so inextricably integrated into the economy and even the government.
That's a really good point.
And it it it's not a traditional drug war in the old sense.
It's sort of fragmentation and power vacuums, right?
After the breakup of more powerful consolidated cartels, dozens of regional groups now compete for territory and trafficking routes and increasingly diversified revenue streams.
So things like fuel theft, extortion, uh, human smuggling, illegal.
I mean, all kinds of supposedly they've interrupted the avocado supply chain.
And oftentimes the violence is about local market control, because Mexico's a big economy rather than just narcotics exports.
Yeah, no, I get that.
It's just that that this is the reaction, like to just show what they can do to upset economics, right?
I guess that's what they're doing.
I mean, i i i the thing that does so much damage to this, hands down, my favorite place to travel in the world.
And I'm very fortunate I get to go to a lot of You love Mexico.
Every year I go with a group of guys to Tulum.
I love Cabo.
I think uh Sam Miguel de A, yeah.
I just think Mexico, I also think it's the best bargain in the world.
It's six-star service and food and culture and vistas for four-star prices, where in Europe, whereas in Europe you get a lot of five-star service for six-star prices.
The I absolutely love the food, the culture, the people.
And what happens is Americans immediately are like, oh no, I'm not going to travel there.
And the reality is most of this violence is confined to what I'll call Mexican on-Mexican violence.
But it makes you think, should I these photos of tourists from, you know, they're all in their hotels near beaches and they're just showing enormous amounts of fires.
I guess there's there was one guy who was in his hotel room, and he this guy, these these two cartel members that are on motorcycles, set fire to like a version of a 7-Eleven there, like just in front of him.
And it was really uh it's really interesting to experience it this way, like sort of online.
Like, hey, I was down here having a margarita, and oh yeah, the drug cartels just bombed a car in my neighborhood.
But this does this does sort of signal a shift because for the last for in recent years, Mexico's federal strategy, and some people call it appeasement, has been more about containment over confrontation.
This is confrontation.
And also we don't we don't want to have an honest conversation.
The U.S.
plays a role here.
Huge.
There's a dimension here, and that is a lot of our firearms flow south.
Uh you know what drives a lot of the profits here is is U.S.
drug demand and fentanyl production and trafficking have reshaped the supply chain and the economics of the trade.
Lower input costs, much higher potency, smaller shipping volumes.
So the the synthetic, the power or economic potency of synthetics have changed the incentive structure.
You don't need large cocoa fields or massive kind of drug smuggling convoys.
You need kind of like chemical precursors and in distribution networks and enforcement muscle.
But let me be clear, I'm still going to Mexico.
I love Mexico.
Yeah, anyway, it's a black eye for Claudia Scheinbaum, I have to say, even if the U.S.
helped her and stuff like that.
Well, is it a black eye or does she show some some some muscle here?
Like, by doing something about it.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm we're gonna keep watching it, and I hope people there are safe.
Um, how is resistant unsubscribe going?
Some of you have been writing in asking for alternatives to big tech uh that they're unsubscribing from.
We asked David Pierce, editor at large at The Verge and co-host of the VergeCast to give us some recommendations.
Let's listen to what he had to say.
If I was trying to get rid of big tech apps in my life, my top three or four recommendations would definitely start with Proton.
Proton is this company started by a bunch of CERN scientists in Switzerland that is very privacy focused.
And over the years, they've actually built a series of apps that are basically as good as everything you get from Google.
They have a drive, they have an email, they have calendar, they have all the stuff.
The next one is probably Signal, which is the messaging app I think everyone should switch to.
There are things that are good about WhatsApp, even though it's owned by Meta, but Signal is an organization run by the right kind of people who believe in the right kind of things.
And then the third one is slightly more afield, but I would say anyone who wants to do smart home stuff in their life right now should use Home Assistant.
You can use Alexa, you can use HomeKit, you can use Google.
But Home Assistant is this very specific, hackable, open system that you control much more completely than you control any of those other systems.
Everything from the stuff on your doorbell that's looking out at the world and seeing people come up to your door to like the baby monitors inside of your house.
Who runs that stuff matters?
That was great.
That was great.
Those are all three terrific recommendations.
So what's going on, Scott?
Well, first off, uh it bears repeating.
You have been the biggest supporter of this, and I very much appreciate it.
Okay.
But as we wind down February, so the two objectives were what I call signal and incentives.
Wanted to send a signal to the American public that they have this weapon hiding in plain sight and that their economic decisions can have an impact.
I think we've I think we've hit that uh uh on all levels.
We've gotten just a ton of media exposure, a ton of unsubscribes.
People, I do think there's a large percentage of the populace now realizes that economic strength is is strength.
The second objective was incentives, and that is to reconfigure the incentives among big tech executives to think twice before they enable or facilitate.
I'm not sure we've accomplished that, quite frankly.
I my friends have said it's a conversation on product management teams, but it's not a board-level conversation yet.
So the question is as we wind down February, what do we do?
I was contacted by um uh the Dutch historian Rutger Bregman, who's been instrumental in this.
Yeah, I'm a huge fan.
By the way, he's only 37.
He's a lovely guy.
Yeah, and super smart.
And he reached out and said, FYF, for people who don't know, he confronted the issue of billionaires at Davos and got a lot of attention from the B.
He called him a bunch of tax avoiders.
He basically said, none of you want to talk about the real issue on the table, which was tax avoidance.
He's unafraid.
I love the guy.
And uh anyways, I I love authors and academics who are just sort of unafraid.
And he contacted me and said, you've got the brand, the visibility, and the momentum.
We have this group of really talented young people and some traction in something called quit GPT.
And his view is you need to consolidate and focus on one and try and bring them down.
And so we're trying to figure out, we've decided we're going to continue with something in March, but we're trying to figure out what are the learnings, how do we be more impactful, and how do we keep our momentum going?
Um and I'm gonna speak to you about it and some other people, but I've had a bunch of organizations, a bunch of Congress people, elected representatives all say, how do we continue this and how do we make it more effective?
I did an I did an analysis for us to get the number of visitors, unique visitors to our site, if we paid for it and we haven't paid a dime, would cost us somewhere between five and nine million dollars.
Yeah, it just shows the power of social media in terms of the platforms we've built and the content stream we have and how powerful podcasts are at driving.
But I need to in the next several days figure out what we do in March.
Is it focusing?
Is it different media outlets?
What is it that helps maintain this momentum?
Is it consolidating?
There are three or four similar movements around the world.
Do we all consolidate?
I was on a call with Record at Ed, and I was like, if the British, the Russians, and the Americans can come together to defeat Germany, maybe we should figure out a way to all consolidate and come together.
But the the two points are distill down to a smaller number of targets, if you will, and also do what you said, develop uh um structure uh some full-time resources.
Yeah, I think so.
So that you can, they just tell you what to do, right?
Essentially, there's there's a lot of people who do that.
One of the things that's, you know, someone who I'm really impressed with, uh, Amanda Lippmann who runs Run for Something, and it's too, I had her on the podcast.
She's incredibly um uh, you know, strategic in terms of figuring out what people need to do, especially young people.
It seems like this is something you need to get people who are actually a little more, you know, that that really can focus in it energetically.
I don't mean professionally, like, because there's a lot of professional organizers that don't really get stuff done.
I think you've really caught lightning in a bottle here, and you've got to keep doing it.
Anyway, we were gonna we're still working on an event, uh, Scott and I are, and so we're gonna do that, hopefully.
Um, and uh, and we'll see where it goes from there.
Um, but let's uh let's move on to the stuff we have to cover today.
Uh Donald Trump is increasing his global tariffs to 15% from 10% effective immediately, just days after the Supreme Court struck down most of his global tariffs.
In a six to three decision, the court ruled that Trump exceeded his authority when he invoked the Emergency Powers Act.
Trump called the decision ridiculous and anti-American.
He also insulted the justices personally quite a bit.
Um that was, you know, it was worse than that.
He's just being a giant fucking baby.
His latest workaround uses a 1974 trade law that allows him to impose temporary terrorists for 150 days.
He just posted on True Social a little while ago about the court empowering him to use the terrorists in a more powerful and obnoxious way.
He's just, you know, he's just the the the court, let me be clear, was very clear about what he was doing was illegal, essentially, and that the Congress and and and uh Gorsuch, the Judge Dorsage had a really eviscerating take on how Congress is sort of abrogated its responsibility.
One of the other justices who was against it can questions if the if uh the refunds could happen.
Um, Scott Bessant sort of is trying to hedge that bet because they've got to give billions in uh in many, many billions in um, I think 175 billion, something like that, in returns to U.S.
businesses, et cetera.
The repercussions of this tariff position, the EU just hit pause on its U.S.
trade deal until it gets more clarity on what Trump is doing.
Thousands of companies around the world have already filed lawsuits challenging the tariffs even before the Supreme Court's ruling.
So there's all a market in that.
Estimates suggest the government could owe again more than 175 billion in refunds.
The Supreme Court is leaving the refund question, lower court.
This is just Kavanaugh who warned the process it's going to be a mess, and it is.
Let's do let's listen to Secretary Bessant uh what he said about these payoffs.
He spoke to Fox News after the decision.
This could take months, this could take years to litigate and to get to the payouts.
And if there is a payout, it looks like it's just going to be the ultimate corporate welfare.
Oh, please, Scott, you took the money from them.
Give it back.
Um, talk about what the next move is for everybody and and and the reaction that Trump had, which was was was very I honestly thought it was dangerous given the political uh heat right now, especially for the Supreme Court justices.
It's weird, everyone says he's a loser.
There's no doubt it's a check on his authority and you know, a rejection or a gag reflex.
The the primary purpose or power of Congress is the power of the purse.
They're the ones that are supposed to.
I mean, what you've had on a meta level, and Barry Goldwater back in the 70s warned of this, there's been a slow abrogation of power to the executive branch.
And a lot of the power was checked by norms, not by laws.
And then someone showed up and said, Fuck the norms.
I'm declaring wars and tariffs on my own.
And one of the reasons you've seen such uh so many Republican Congress people decide to retire is they're like, it's one thing to be in the minority and know that you've been defenestrated or neutered.
It's another thing to be in the majority and the speaker of the House is not the Speaker of the House, he's the Speaker of the White House.
He's there just to run roughshod over us and pretend he represents Congress.
He doesn't.
He represents the president.
And Republicans are like, wait, I thought we were in charge and had some say here, and we don't.
And these tariffs would not have gone through.
There are enough Republicans against the tariffs.
You know, they're supposed to be the free marketers.
So this is a victory for uh co-equal branches of government and Congress controlling the purse.
I think it's a huge victory for the Supreme Court, who was looking increasingly like Trump's um, you know, trolls or not trolls, Trump's acolytes, right?
It this does look like the independence of the court.
Six to three is pretty resounding.
In a weird way, I thought this gave Trump an off-ramp from what was clearly a failed economic policy that I thought the economy in the stock market would actually probably um go up.
What was interesting is the the reaction was muted.
The market was slightly up, but now it's looking like he's going to use another provision, 122, which only lasts 150 days.
But it's more in consistency, and we've said this for a long time.
More than more than the tariffs themselves, the most damaging thing to American trade policy is inconsistency.
Nobody, no small business knows how to plan their business against what will be tariffs or not tariffs.
What I've been tracking, I was working with a hedge fund trying to find tariff claims.
So if you're Mercedes-Benz of the United States and you paid 20 million tariffs, you could at one point potentially buy those claims for 10 cents on the dollar.
Now those have accelerated to 20 to 40 cents on the dollar, but the reason they're not trading at 60 or 80 cents on the dollar is the administration and complexity of potentially getting the money back.
I think that's a red herring.
I just don't I think if if they collected this money easily, I don't see why they can't reimburse it easily.
It was all done digitally.
So I don't I don't buy that argument.
But it's more indecision, it's more sclerotic decision making where people can't plan their business again.
And what you see is just a continued reconfiguration of the global supply chain around the U.S.
where we have massively benefited over.
You know, someone brought up the notion, the very simple notion, actually I think it was Justin Whipers that said, we have a trade deficit in the form of dollars, but we have a trade surplus in the form of stuff.
So the example is I have a trade deficit with my barber, but my barber makes me look just fucking dreamy for very little money.
So it's a good trade.
And U.S.
trade policy, while we give more paper money to them, we get so much shit because of the strength of the dollar.
I mean, stuff.
Trump isn't is an economic imbecile.
Like he's just he's seen things like he learned economics in fourth grade, and that's where he's stuck.
If you if you export $100 with NVIDIA chips to Germany in exchange for $100 of a Mercedes G-Wagon, they operate at 10 points operating margin and get seven times, you know, EBITDA.
So they get $70.
We operate uh NVIDIA operates at like 60 points operating margin and trades at 40, we get 2400.
I mean, if there's any asymmetry here of who is who is disproportionately benefited from global trade, it's been the U.S.
We've been the big winner.
This is stuck in Trump's brain forever because he's just not honestly, he's not that smart, right?
Like I know it uh just in a in a very basic way.
He has this has had it in this brain, and then he has these facilitators.
And by the way, Scott Bessant knows better, of course.
He knows exactly what you know.
And he's I don't know what his game is.
I mean, it's he's talking about tarnishing a reputation that yeah, that was pretty decent.
Um, but one of the one of the things that's problematic is that he's operating sort of economics for dummies or something, like something because he sticks in his brain that this is the way things go.
And I I I think most people don't think about it in in in a complex way.
I think the two things that I think about again were these that the Supreme Court did him a favor here, right?
That got him, he got to try out his stupid ideas.
He seems to be doubling down.
He's doubling down in a really demented way.
And the personal stuff that he was attacking them with, and you know, apparently.
Families should be ashamed.
Families and uh Barrett, uh Cody Barrett, and uh uh Gorsuch, I think.
Um just really strange, just really, really strange.
And they were all they were saying was pointing out the obvious, which was this is something Congress should do.
It's something Congress is the job is to do.
And he just doesn't feel any restraints on himself.
And that's what it is.
And it's like old man combined with someone who's already an egomaniac and a narcissist, combined with more old man, combined with he gets to do what he wants this term, and the victimization that he has is so massive, you know, that he's always being victimized.
Someone's always fucking him.
That's his whole world view, that it's just we're being governed by a guy who just again didn't is a victim, thinks he's a victim.
Anyway, uh we'll see.
Where does it go from here very briefly?
Well on Calci, they're saying it's a 76% chance the court orders a tariff refund before 2027.
So it does feel like he's running out of options.
This uh section 122 has a maximum of 150 days.
Right.
The Supreme Court does seem pretty resolute on this 6'3.
I don't think it's gonna get a lot of support from even Republicans who are Congress, like, oh, wait, we have meaning again?
You mean we get to actually have input?
You actually have to bring this to us.
And if if he thinks these tariffs have merit and they're good for the economy, then take it to Congress and work out a deal with them.
That's that's what they're there for.
That's right.
But he doesn't want to do that because he can't get it passed, because he can't get it past the what he wants to get the money.
Because he can't justify it intellectually or economically.
Right.
Well, this is uh the the amount of money, the prosperity we have recognized from global trade.
Now, granted, uh he his some of his instincts are correct.
We had an asymmetric relationship we were getting taken advantage of, in my view, in terms of our relationship with China.
They, you know, they they steal our IP and then sell us stuff at sixty cents on the dollar.
We are not good at looking after people who are on the wrong end of global trade.
But he's never doing that.
He just tells them he's here for them, but then he doesn't actually do anything.
100% for them.
And then if you want to look at the manufacturing sector that was supposed to be rejuvenated, that has not happened.
What has happened is that the tourist industry, which employs 12 million people uh, versus the manufacturing industry, which employs 11 million, is taking a real hit because Canadians are thinking, no, I'm not going to Disneyland or Las Vegas this year.
Well, no, look at that.
Didn't you say that story about that British woman who was put into ice for six weeks?
Well, checking your people who have to turn over their phone and they're being asked for their password.
It's like, fuck that.
I'll go to I'll go to Capri or I'll go to Buenos Aires.
You know, I'll do something else.
I would think this is a I would think every tourism board in the world is like, come here, we'll take your money.
Yeah, anyway.
Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break.
We come back, get ready for Trump's State of the Union.
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Scott, we're back.
As we record, we're one day away from Trump's uh State of the Union speech.
This will appear on the day of it.
He's walking in with a 60% disapproval rating, according to New Washington Post, ABC Ipsos poll.
House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is urging Democrats to either attend in silent defiance or skip the speech.
And a growing number of Democrats plan to attend a counter rally on the National Mall called the People State of the Union.
And uh Virginia Governor Abigail Spanwer is delivering the official democratic response.
That's a good choice.
What do you think of this?
I'm wondering if that's if and when we bomb Iran.
I don't think he has a lot to say.
I don't know.
I think his speech writers are scratching their head.
Apparently, Vance previewed it.
Apparently, he's going to talk about how manufacturing is coming back to the U.S.
like tomorrow.
It's sort of like an Elon promise of autonomy.
I think the screenshots here are going to be really hilarious.
The audience reaction, even I think there's even going to be some Republicans who are coming, oh yeah, polite clap.
Uh yeah, that's not that's not working here.
I don't I I think it's gonna be very interesting, but I feel as if he's you know, they're like, okay, how do we turn chicken shit into chicken salad here?
Yeah, they're gonna talk Vance apparently gave an interview where he's talking about how we're gonna suddenly have factories everywhere.
Like it's all made up.
Literally, it feels like, you know, there was a really interesting meme online of Elon promising autonomy for like 10 years, like tomorrow, next week.
They're gonna try to say everything's great with the economy, which to me, when Biden did that was so uneffective when people know that's not the case.
I think this these numbers are just astonishing that he keeps doubling down, right?
On these 60% disapproval is so high.
I don't think you I think it was this number right after the January 6th attack on the Capitol.
I mean, I think that's where we are right now.
And um it'll be interesting.
I I think there's a high chance of crazy, like that he does something nuts.
Just goes unchained.
Unchained, like he says something kooky or he loses his words.
I wouldn't get up there if I were him.
You know, of course he's gonna have pancake makeup caked on his hand.
By the way, whoever is doing that, I can tell you there are Hollywood people that can make that hand look better.
I keep looking at it and I'm like, what is his like secretary doing it?
Or, you know, with a bunch of like like sheep makeup.
It's really weird.
I feel like they could do a better job of that.
I mean, it's the same person that came up with the tariff strategy.
Right, exactly.
It's Peter Navarro slabbering, you know, Mac.
Hold your hand out.
It's not even making it.
My niece works, my niece works at Sephora.
This is how you do it.
But seriously, I think it is a good chance of crazy.
Good can't like a high chance of crazy.
Like something.
Yeah.
I wouldn't do it if I were him.
I'd find some dumb excuse not to do it.
But he ne he he's now a heat-seeking mimp missile.
Have you noticed how much he's been like appearing?
Like he keeps appearing everywhere.
I don't know.
I just feel like it's bad.
We'll see what happens.
But the the at the very least, if he doesn't say something crazy, poop his pants or or lose his words, and it'll be fine, I guess, and doesn't just lie too much.
Um I don't know.
What should the Democrats do?
Just show up and say nothing, stare angrily.
I think you just sit there and kind of look like, okay.
Are you fucking kidding me?
This dude is lost as shit.
I I don't know what they should do.
I don't think they uh acquit yourself like the elected leaders you are and just uh polite, you know, should they not not go?
The Supreme Court has to go, the all of them, right?
Don't you think?
Yeah, as do our elected representatives.
I I just hate the idea of uh whoever's president, half the house doesn't show up.
I don't I don't know.
I don't like that.
I think there's a certain decorum, it's the State of the Union.
Show up.
You don't have to smile, you don't have to applaud, but yeah, I think you show up.
And and of course the Supreme Court should show up.
Yeah.
Maybe he'll tell us they're aliens.
Maybe that's what he's gonna do.
I don't know.
Something.
He's gonna have to have a jazz hands.
He shouldn't use his hands too much.
Let's just say I'm just praying that the teleprompter goes down and he goes full apeshig crazy.
I hope that it's I hope it's two gin and tonics for drunk unclean.
No, but he doesn't drink.
Remember, he doesn't drink.
Remember his brother dying of alcoholism?
He he's like anti-drinking.
But other but other than that, Kara, how is this brother doing?
What's dead?
All right.
Um That's like do you ever run into a friend and you ask how their dad is and you didn't know this?
Like, oh my dad passed a year ago.
Oh, but wait, other than that, how's it doing?
It's you know, that's always my response.
You never didn't.
What are you supposed to say?
Never what I find is people don't go, oh, I'm sorry.
It's like, well, dude, he died a year ago.
I'm fine.
I think you make a joke out of it.
Okay.
All right.
Well, my mom's still living, just to remember that.
So, all right.
Uh lucky.
Lucky.
She's good.
I got her a lazy boy.
Uh that's the greatest innovation in Hollywood.
It's not AI, it's lazy boys in theaters.
Can I just say it stands up now?
It's so good.
I took her to lunch.
I I lifted her right out of that chair.
Suck her in anyway.
She loves her lazy boy.
She loves her lazy boy.
I'm just saying, I'm getting you one.
I want one with wheels where I can just fly down the avenue.
No, we're gonna keep you in a room, and that's gonna be the end of it.
So this is one I've been really excited to talk to you about.
President Trump has called on Netflix to fire board member Susan Rice or quote, pay the consequences after Rice said Democrats would push for corporate accountability.
The DOJ is investigating Netflix's proposed takeover of Warner Brothers and whether the deal may, quote, substantially lessen competition.
And Paramount saying there's quote, no statutory impediment to closing its deal for Warner Brothers after clearing a U.S.
antitrust waiting period.
This is not true.
Uh regulators could still stop to sue it.
Of course, there's the EU and other uh other ways.
This is not this was a press release.
Meanwhile, a group of Democratic senators is threatening to investigate Paramount, seeking information on the company's contacts with the Trump administration.
As we taped the seven-day window for Warner Brothers to talk with Paramount, it is nearing an end at 1159 PM on Monday.
Um talk about this, this Trump thing.
I mean, Susan Rice?
Like what I mean, maybe it'll have an implication.
I don't know.
It's just weird.
You can't make like he had tried to get Lisa Monaco from stopping working at Microsoft.
Microsoft just ignored him, essentially, and she's still working there.
Um, do you think it's important?
What do you what do you what do you think here?
Yeah, it's it's incredibly socialist.
Capital markets function on the assumption that boards are accountable to shareholders, that regulatory authority is exercised through formal channels and that political powers and uses leverage in private corporate disputes.
And you know, when those lines erode, you introduce political risk and into ordinary governance decisions.
Capitalism is supposed to be regulated competition.
And a guy who just has a history of bankrupting casinos and leaving a stream of unpaid subcontractors, uh, you know, who got rich through a grift monetizing the White House is not the person to be telling companies.
It's just it's totally anathema to the way America has built its economy.
Yeah, you know, you when political actors treat corporate boards as cultural background battlegrounds, you shift you shift from kind of rules-based capitalism to personality-driven capitalism.
Investors, investors can price regulation, but they struggle to price discretionary political targeting.
So does this mean every time the administration changes, we invest in companies that are have Democratic board members versus Republican board members.
If presidents start leaning on boards, it invites Congress, regulators, and state officials to do the same.
And that's not market discipline.
That's the way that's we won't give you this unless you get rid of this person.
I mean, so far again, it didn't work with Lisa Monaco at Microsoft.
They just basically ignored the request.
And I think so I was with some Netflix people.
I went to the BAFTA awards last night.
No, you did?
You went to BAFTA?
Hello.
Oh, I I I did know BAFTA was a big deal, and I showed up just with a blazer, and then Ted Serandos came up to me in a tux.
I'm like, oh God, I fucked up.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, yeah.
Uh but everyone, yeah, it was really really fancy.
I didn't a f a friend of mine took me to dinner and said, Do you want to go to the BAFTA awards?
I was like, Yeah.
Wow.
And anyways, but they will I I I have no inside information here, but I know what smart class act Netflix management is.
I'm sure if they haven't already, they'll put out a statement of support for Susan Rice.
And this is this has become so obviously he's now supporting um Paramount.
But I talked to some Netflix.
I think that at this point, these so much testosterone has gotten involved in this.
If you had asked either the Ellisons or Ted Surrando six months ago, are you willing, would you ever pay $82 billion for Warner?
They'd say, no fucking way, it's not worth that in any world.
But because Zaslov, to his credit, is not a great operator, but he's an outstanding investment banker, he has played them off each other and convinced both of them to overpay.
If the Ellisons end up getting this and Netflix doesn't, my prediction is that Netflix stock is up 10 to 20 percent.
Because with $80 billion, Netflix can create just a shit ton of content, new verticals, new markets, new subscription plans.
They'll be able to I at this point, I think it would almost be better for them if they lost and they just sue the shit out of Paramount and the government and basically create keep Hollywood in a state of flux.
And they're the winner.
And just, you know, they're sort of the default, right?
You have to even in the resistant unsubscribe people would say, I'm going down to one streaming media platform.
And if you go down to one, who do you choose?
Netflix, absolutely.
You choose Netflix, right?
It's the Netflix, yeah.
Yeah, everyone else's heated seats and car stereos.
They're they're the engine in the car itself.
They're the chassis, so to speak.
Right.
Or Disney, right?
Because it's not a good thing.
If you have young kids and you don't watch TV, maybe.
Well, I guess.
I watch a lot of TV.
You're wrong.
I watch it at night.
But yeah, it it's uh what you're gonna see here, I think, is that even if the Ellisons get it, if Netflix could block the closing of the acquisition until the next administration, they might be able to overturn it because the whole point of capitalism is it's pretty basic.
And an MA.
Whoever shows up with more money gets approved by shareholders, and then it has to survive regulatory review.
The president has no role in any of that.
That's not as what he that's not what he's there for.
He's the whole point of government is we let our thoroughbreds run.
We have antitrust, we have regulatory concerns, we have Cyphyous security concerns, but you're supposed to.
Guess what?
The American Corporation is the second best performing organizations in history, only behind the U.S.
military.
We create these these out of control, full body contact violence, not a ton of regulation, low regulation rules, regulated competition produces unprecedented profits, prosperity, and innovation.
And all of a sudden you you have a f uh a failed rich kid deciding who should own what?
Yeah, exactly.
So one of the things that I is really struck me, look, Netflix will be fine without this.
I think they really want it now.
You know what I mean?
I think they are weird.
Ego's involved now, Karen.
Not just ego, but it's actually could be good for them too.
I I don't agree.
I think with that money, they could build a bigger business on their own.
Possibly, possibly.
Right, you're right.
You're absolutely right.
So they'll be fine, whatever.
And in slowing everything down, they've created a slowdown for everybody, which is always good for them because they're faster, right?
They were lapping Hollywood for years.
I sat there, I was like, why are you letting Netflix lap you all for years and years and years?
So they have that ability to do that.
And they've always stayed fresh.
They're a very fresh company, even as old as they are comparatively, right?
So they're still they remain fresh and relevant.
Um and people are learning how to do what they do, but it's taken forever for Hollywood to do so.
And one of the things that just gets me is one, the efforts of Paramount are one, to run a shitty business and show that you cannot do content, whether it's over at CBS News or losing uh Taylor Sheridan.
Oh, come on, landmen.
The world before a the world before HR.
I love Landman.
Okay, I know you do.
A bunch of men drilling where they're not supposed to drill, people die, and then they pay them off and everything's better.
How could you how could you ruin 60 minutes?
What a bunch of fucking idiots.
I'm sorry.
Like, how could you how could you get Anderson Cooper to walk out?
He's such a polite young man.
Like, it's just like you're a bunch of dummies.
I'm sorry.
I really I like some of you, but seriously, this is ridiculous.
And it comes from the top.
I'm sorry.
And getting daddy to pay for it is really depressing on so many levels.
Like so sad.
It's like sad, rich kid.
And they and they're gonna let me just tell you, guess who's coming for you?
You think the Democrats won't do anything?
You are wrong, Paramount.
They are coming at you.
If they win these elections, I don't it's gonna be a long time before you get your hands on CNN.
It's gonna be a long time before you get your hands on any of this.
And then let's stop at European regulators.
Like, and by the way, now pe people in Hollywood don't all love Netflix.
That is a hundred percent clear.
But now suddenly a lot of Hollywood people like Mark Ruffalo, very liberal, is is pushing back against James Cameron, who's because he loves theaters, whatever.
Um, there's now like a growing like, hey, leave Netflix alone, like, which is incredible because they're so like bossy to most of Hollywood.
So Paramount, you have managed to shoot yourself in every foot possible, every toe in the way you've conducted this.
And just throw the money at it as you should have done in the first place, and just take daddy's money and and buy it, but you're still not gonna get it easily, especially because you're stressing all this closeness with the Trump administration.
It's not gonna end well for you in three or four months.
In the first Star Wars, uh Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi is on the Millennium Falcon, and he feels a disturbance in the force, and he has to sit down and he goes, It's as if millions of people just screamed and then nothing.
And he's referring to the Death Star, which builds a capability to destroy planets, and Darth Vader orders the destruction of Alderon.
You are going to see if the Ellisons get, if the Ellisons close, if Paramount closes on Warner Brothers, you are going to hear a scream from the creative community of which they're not even aware of.
Agreed.
And then you'll get this the the scale they'll overpay.
At this point, they're both overpaying.
Whoever gets it is overpaying.
And then Father Ellison is gonna go, okay.
The only way we can get anything resembling a return is to reduce cost by 40%.
The fact that SAGAFTA and the writers guild are not uh uh hair on fire about AI.
You want to see AI come to an industry and destroy the labor?
Oh my god.
Because Ted Surrand, whatever you think about Netflix, they like Hollywood.
They still hire makeup artists, they still they still do things kind of, I don't want to call it, you know, the old way, but if you want to talk about a destruction in human capital, wait till you see what happens here if the Ellisons.
I I think with CBS, they're like, all right, we have to make some bold, take some risk because this thing is just going away slowly.
Not in drinky dink way.
I get it.
They could I have a list of things.
I think it's hard.
It's hard to defend the execution to date.
They had to take some risks here.
I wouldn't have taken a lot of risk to the state.
No, I would have waited until this deal was over and maybe hired a competent person, but that's a different story.
Anyway, um, let's go on a quick break and we come back.
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When you look beyond the headlines at the trend lines, what is really going to matter?
Even if you're not worried about AI per se, you certainly ought to be concerned.
Do we have the cultural, you know, strength and resilience to get it right now?
Imagine we had to write a new constitution today, put aside AI.
Like how good a job do you think we would do?
I'm John Finer.
And I'm Jake Sullivan, and we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.
This week we're joined by economist and author Tyler Cowan.
We discussed China, the AI race, and aliens.
The episode's out now.
Search for and follow the long game wherever you get your podcasts.
Scott, we're back.
This is really interesting because you've talked about the problems that companies not AI are having, but Wall Street is taking interest in a new category called Halo Companies, heavy assets, low obsolescence.
Businesses seen as largely immune to disruption from AI.
Really interesting.
SP 500 sectors for industrials, materials, utilities, and consumer staples have marched ahead in the last month.
Companies like McDonald's and ExxonMobil are taking a win as investors try to take cover from potential AI disruption.
Now, you said a lot of these companies have suffered because AI has taken most of the gains in the stock market.
Talk up, talk about this.
This was a story in the Wall Street Journal, but it's something we've discussed before.
It was the other 400 companies, not the first the top seven or whatever.
There's been a rotation out of AI companies into what are traditionally thought of as defense stocks, like Procter and Gamble or Caterpillar, but they have been run up.
And so what you've had is you've had this weird phenomena where there's been a pretty serious like multi-trillion dollar destruction in the private and public market valuations of the companies most tightly associated with AI, whether it's Nvidia or Microsoft or you know, they they have all gotten hit pretty hard.
What's also interesting though, and then there's been a rotation into quote unquote the defensive guys that are considered AI immune.
Goldman Sachs put together an AI immune index.
The opportunity in all of this, and where I'm actually thinking of investing is that while AI stocks have come down, you know, the there's still a massive fear that they're going to destroy entire sectors.
And the sectors that are ground zero for this fear right now are traditional SaaS companies.
The view is since this new innovation from Claude that those businesses that someone will just automatically put in a prompt and all of a sudden overnight no longer need Salesforce for their CRM for their salespeople, and that overnight Salesforce is going to go away.
I mean, Salesforce and Adobe and ServiceNow, these companies are off somewhere between 40 and 70 percent.
These companies, and by the way, there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
Yeah.
So these companies are growing at double digits and trading at free cash flows of like, you know, multiples on free cash flow of 10 or 12.
Meanwhile, some of these old economy companies that are growing at single digits are trading at much higher multiples.
So I would argue that one of the biggest opportunities in the market right now is the traditional SaaS companies as a multiple on their free cash flow.
This is beyond these Halo companies, beyond the McDonald's stuff.
No, I think the Halo guys, quite frankly, are overpriced right now.
Oh, interesting.
They're low-growth companies trading at exceptional PEs.
Meanwhile, I mean, uh keep in mind, if you think, so at all my companies, we've had Salesforce.
I don't care if some kid, if some kid came to me and said, okay, we can kind of replicate Salesforce with a thoughtful prompt into anthropic, I'd be like, okay, we're gonna have to retrain everybody on a new UI.
These companies get so they have client service, they have events, they have they have worked out millions of bugs over a couple years.
I get invited to Dream Force if I spend enough money.
The thought that all of a sudden people are just gonna strip out Adobe or Figma or Service Now is just these companies are so deeply embedded.
You can call it technical debt, you can call it switching costs, whatever it is.
In addition, if if AI can actually take the coding down to something meaningless, then what will happen, I think, is that these SaaS companies will reduce their cost by 10 or 20%, which gives you the their actual coding and technical costs are only 10 or 20% of their revenue.
The other 80% is marketing, branding, client service, design, events.
So that shows you where the value is.
They'll do the same thing and then pass on those savings.
So you might see some mild margin compression, but I think the flight into quote unquote defensive stocks, I think that trade has been overdone.
And I think there's one of the biggest, I haven't been able to find value anywhere.
I've been selling, not buying for the first time in a long time.
I look at these SaaS companies.
There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that a large corporation is giving up Adobe or Salesforce and putting in new prompts into AI.
So I think that threat has been massively over overdone.
Also, I think the rotation into these more traditional low-growth companies, quite frankly, I think those guys are really overvalued right now.
These are low growth companies trading at a tech growth multiples.
Yeah, I would agree.
I think you're absolutely right.
I think that's a really interesting take on that.
The it it is interesting that people are looking beyond AI, right?
Like where are the opportunities?
And I think I think your argument is excellent.
So what are you buying?
Oh, I'm going to put together probably a basket of Figma, Adobe, Salesforce, maybe ServiceNow.
But I look at those companies, and unless there's a collapse in their business model, do you know how hard it is to get rid of?
I remember, you know, these companies are so deeply embedded.
I remember we were paying $25,000 a year for my terminal for Bloomberg, and we thought, okay, let's go to Thompson Reuters, it's cheaper.
Bloomberg is so tightly integrated into your life if you're managing a hedge fund.
Yep.
Even messaging, the way we messaged other people in the hedge fund business.
Things do get replaced though over time, Scott.
I think what's going to happen here is margin compression.
But they'll the I think they'll cut costs.
I mean, I still think, I mean, for example, Salesforce, I actually think it was really brilliant branding.
They have built some of the tallest buildings in every one of their markets in the world.
There's probably, if they needed to, quite a bit of cost they could cut and pass on to their consumers.
There is.
That's because Mark Benioff has penis building problems.
These are smart people.
What they might say is if they see a threat, they might say, oh, Salesforce is now 0.6x per seat versus X per seat.
These are smart, well-run management teams.
Uh and by the way, no evidence whatsoever that any of this is impacting any of those companies.
Yes, that is a bigger point.
All right, Scott's going different than Halo.
He's going, what are we going to call them?
Soft S S not dead S software as a service.
Abandoned.
It's like that little monkey who is a who's rejected by his his family and found a plushie.
It's the plushie strategy.
I knew you watched that.
I can't stop watching that little monkey.
I know.
I can't stop watching.
Did you see the one?
His mom rejected him and they gave him a plushie.
I know, but did you see the one where they it was speaking of AI use, where the monkey attacks all the other monkeys, the monkey with the plush, she attacks all the other monkeys.
Oh, starts doing kung fu on them?
Yeah, starts doing kung fu on them.
Like he's like he's had enough.
He's gonna punch.
Anyway.
I just thought that bad that I saw that, and granted, I think I was on an edible, and I'm like, that's my purpose in life is to be other people's plushie.
Plushie.
That's my purpose.
You are my plushie.
Anyway, uh this could go somewhere weird really quickly, so I'm gonna move on.
One more quick break.
We'll be back for wins and fails.
In the wake of the release of millions of documents related to the Jeffrey Epstein case, the rich and famous are finally feeling some pain.
But even with corporate resignations here, and with former Prince Andrew being arrested in the UK, the question remains: how did Jeffrey Epstein remain a thriving member of the elite for decades when everyone seemed to know what he was up to?
I don't think you could be friends with Jeffrey Epstein, whose MO was obviously having sex with young girls, even as Trump said, on the younger side, and not know his MO.
Untangling the Epstein Conspiracy.
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All right.
Wins and fails.
I shall go first, because I have declared myself first.
So when the Olympics just ended, they were quite good.
U.S.
women and women in general dominated.
America's female Olympians won six gold medals and 17 medals overall.
American men won four gold medals and 12 medals over.
It's not a competition, but they did really well.
And in any case, one of the things I was really struck by was not an American, but someone who is American.
I Eileen Gu, uh, who won the gold medal in the women's free uh free ski halfpipe event for China.
She's been meddling for China, just won a couple of silvers.
She's been really plagued by stupid questions, largely from male um reporters.
But she got asked a question uh when asked uh by a woman, what do you think about your words before you speak?
It actually was a very complimentary question, saying, You're so well spoken.
How do you do it?
And so let's listen to her answer, which I thought was so superb.
She's gorgeous, she's a model, she's a skier, she's an athlete, etc.
Let's let's listen.
Do I think I think overall I'm just a pensive person?
Like I'm a very introspective.
I'm an introspective young woman.
Like I spend a lot of time in my head.
Um, and it's not a bad place to be.
I I journal a lot, I break down all of my thought processes.
I think I apply a very analytical lens to my own thinking, and I kind of modify it because it's so interesting.
You can control what you think.
Like you can control how you think, and therefore you can control who you are.
And especially as a young person, like I'm 22, so with neuroplasticity on my side, I can literally become exactly who I want to be.
How cool is that?
Like, how empowering is that, right?
I think she was quite lively in a way that I really enjoyed listening to her.
Uh you know, push back against people.
Very a lot of these athletes, whether it were some of the skaters, uh, the women skaters were astonishing and they're they're their own people.
I really enjoyed this for that, for all these uh these athletes, especially women showing off.
They don't have to be adorable little dolls.
They were just their own people.
I really like that.
Um my fail is related.
It's when Trump called the US uh men's hockey team in the locker room after their victory, where Cash Patel was making a fucking idiot of himself, chugging beers and acting like he was 21 when he's old and spending taxpayer money.
But let's not get into that imbecile.
But anyways, Trump then tried to said, hold my beer to Cash Patel, and he invited them to the State of the Union and the White House.
But let's listen to how he said it.
We'll do the White House the next day, we'll just have some fun.
We have medals for you guys.
And we have to, I must tell you, we're gonna have to bring the woman's team in your own.
I do believe I probably would be impeached, okay?
It's so great to have a really old man make a stupid old man joke, and that is fine.
We he is what he is, and it was just gross to insult the women who had just won the gold medal.
Um, instead, the guys laughed, and I get it, I get it, I get it.
You're in a locker room, you just won, you're all excited, and you have the president calling you, but you don't have to laugh at his jerky joke.
And I think it's time is over for talking about women like their battle axes, or they're such a pain to be here, and oh, the ladies.
It's tiresome in the extreme.
Um, I'm not someone who doesn't like a good joke.
I put up with Scots all the time, but this is just not funny.
And it isn't funny to the women's team.
Now, a day later, after Trump did invite the US uh women's hockey team, it turns out they simply can't make it.
They don't want to hang with you.
A spokesman for the team said, we are sincerely grateful for the invitation extended to our gold medal-winning U.S.
women's hockey team, and added that they would not be able to attend, quote, due to the timing and previously scheduled academic and professional commitments.
I love that.
And I'm gonna just relate very quickly.
When my son Louie was on a men's soccer cross team, there was a there was an audio of something where they it really insulted the girls in the class really badly.
Like really, like it was a dumb, stupid, sexually charged um song they played.
I don't remember it exactly, but they got a video of it, of course, because everything's videotaped.
And it was gross what they were doing, they're insulting their classmates, like in a really sexist way.
And Louis wasn't singing the song.
I he wasn't in the video, he wasn't singing the song.
But I remember um, you know, when I saw it, I was so disappointed in him because he didn't say anything, right?
He didn't like, and I know he couldn't, he was in the locker room, and so we had a great talk at the time.
And I remember spending a lot of time talking to both my boys about their role in pr like you say, protecting women, not just protecting, but don't laugh at stupid shit like that.
Like you don't have to go along just to get along.
And it was really, it reminded me of that moment when Louis said to me at the time, you know, I didn't do anything.
And I said, You didn't do anything.
That's exactly my problem with you at this moment.
And I get it.
I get it what it's like being a boy.
I get the pressures of it.
But honestly, US men's soccer hockey team, you know, just be better.
Let's just say.
Let's say be better.
That's what I would say to you.
Is if I was your parent, I'd slap you back to last Sunday.
Anyway, that's my go ahead.
Congratulations, by the way, U.S.
men's hockey team and the women's hockey team.
The I I thought the highlight of the winter Olympics was Megan Keller who scored the overtime.
I I grew up going to hockey games.
It was the only one of the few ways my father and I bonded.
We used to go to LA Kings games and watch Marcel Dion and Whitey Whiting and Roge Vishon.
And uh so I know something about hockey, and I used to go to Maple Leafs Games with my father.
The the overtime goal from Megan Keller, uh, hands down for me was the the ultimate demonstration of athleticism, grace under pressure.
And keep in mind, you know, these women are really doing it for the love of the sport.
They don't their league does not pay a lot.
Um can I point out Alyssa Liu and the three others, the three other women from the U.S.
were all supportive of each other.
Like they weren't like at each other's.
Alyssa Lou.
Amazing.
I do not fault the men for laughing.
They're in a locker room to talk with the president.
And most of them are like 23-year-olds from Wisconsin.
I get it.
Not that there's anything wrong with it.
I don't fault them.
I fault the president for not setting a good example for young men.
You know, that's just not, and but the the women did you see the final of the the women's hockey?
Yeah, it was amazing.
The goal she pulled off was so extra I I kept watching it over and I spent 20 minutes watching it 40 times.
It's amazing.
Anyways, uh Megan.
You're right.
They don't get to be star in heated rivalry, et cetera.
They it really is.
They they they're in a star.
Oh my god.
It's like the weekend.
Heated rivalry of women's hockey.
That's already happening.
You got one viewer.
I'm sorry.
That's already happening.
But we'll go into it in great detail.
Go ahead.
Yours win and fail.
Well, i it's one thing, and that is uh okay, so we let our thoroughbreds U.S.
corporations run, and we have structural systemic laws that tell them, okay, you can't pour mercury into the river, and if an industry becomes so consolidated it starts extracting unfair rents from labor or consumers, the government moves in.
Other than that, one of the reasons for our economic growth is we err on a lack of regulation or government intervention.
When the president starts weighing in and saying the most ridiculous shit about a board member, he called her racist.
Oh, yeah, Susan Rice, like famous racist.
So that's not even my fail, though.
That we we've expected that kind of weak and weird socialist slash communist slash autocratic behavior that hurts our economy.
What I can't stand is that Democrats do not lack all creativity around how we're going to strike back.
And let me just give you one idea, because I love the idea of economic activism.
And that is all right, a kind of beltway on ramp into greater wealth is the following.
You serve in Congress or in the cabinet, and you go on because you're an impressive person with strong connections and an understanding of the world, you go on to serve on corporate boards and make some money.
I bet Susan Rice has made millions of dollars on the board of Netflix.
And by the way, I think it's great.
She worked her ass off.
I don't mind.
There should be a cooling off period going to work for lobbyists.
But I have been on boards with former The New York Times, we had Bill Cannard, the former head of the FCC, went on to be the American ambassador to the EU.
I was on a board with uh Rick Snyder, who went on to be the governor of Michigan.
I think it's great that they serve on boards.
They're talented, thoughtful people.
They deserve to make money.
I have no problem with it.
But if the president starts fucking with Democrats on boards, Leader Jeffries, and uh Senator Schumer, why the fuck are you not fucking back?
And this is the following.
For example, Mike Pompeo, former head of the CIA and Secretary of State, he is on a board, and I did this in about 10 minutes of research.
He did, he is on a board uh called Vion, which is a single class share company.
And when I used to do activism, I had to spend 150,000 to 250,000 to file a 13D and nominate directors and get lawyers involved.
I have now written up uh uh uh uh the filings for nominating governors at this single class share company, and I did it in about seven minutes using AI.
I'm gonna buy one share in this company, and I'm gonna start targeting Republicans on boards and not renominating them, and then made me go after another board member.
And anyone in Congress who's a Republican who decides they too would like to make some money on boards.
Well, why aren't Schumer and Jeffrey saying, we're gonna we're gonna be back in power, folks.
And if you want to go serve on boards, as Susan Rice did, we're gonna start fucking with you.
Yeah, look, Scott, the thing is what he's doing is totally wrong.
So you should do the wrong thing in order to meet him.
Like that is a hard decision.
You fire a gun at me.
I am pulling out my gun and I am shooting you in the fucking face.
All right, uh, I'm gonna go to the show.
This is about incentives.
And this is this notion that Democrats that we're higher and mightier and that we'll restore the con fuck that.
Fuck that.
Okay, but you wanna you wanna deny the Constitution and engage in depraved criminal behavior against us?
Well, fine, folks.
If you think we're gonna restore, just go back to being the nice guys who are genteel and restore the norms.
No, that is the wrong incentives.
There needs to be a loud and clear message to the Republicans who are grabbing this their ankles as America gets fucked here.
Be clear.
You want an autocracy, fine.
We'll show you an autocracy when we're back in charge.
Sorry, sorry for the lecture.
Okay.
All right.
I think they're not gonna be invited to the next Democratic getaway.
I there's other ways to fight back that are just as devastating to them that you don't have to do what they did.
There's lots.
I someone called me from one of these companies and it's like, oh, I don't think the Democrats are gonna hurt us.
I said, Oh, they're gonna hurt you.
You just not the same way.
They're not afraid.
They think we're gonna go belly.
To strongly worded letters.
No, they're not going to.
I think there's gonna be action.
I do.
I just don't think we have to do it the way Trump is doing, which is essentially acting like Putin.
Anyway, just for people who don't know, American Trump's favorite judge.
Speaking of fails, Aileen Cannon just blocked the public release of special counsel Jacksmith's report on the classified documents case against Trump, trying her best to get into the Supreme Court.
Aileen or Aileen, whatever your fucking name is, you suck.
And you're gonna be overturned on appeal.
Um, anyway, we want to hear from you.
Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.
We don't want to hear from Judge Cannon at all anymore.
Hopefully, go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot elsewhere in the Cara and Scott universe this week on On with Kara Swisher.
I spoke with Chris Applehans and Maggie Kang, directors uh of the K-pop Demon Hunters.
Maggie's also the creator.
And Scott, you got a mention.
Let's listen.
How do we get Scott to watch it?
Do we just tell him every let's tell him everyone's hot?
That'll work, right?
Because everyone's hot.
So watch it, probably.
Do it.
Just got him to watch.
He did rivalry.
Oh.
So I know.
It took a bit, but I finally got him.
I am gonna make when I'm with him at South by Southwest.
I'm gonna go to his room and we're gonna watch it.
He and I I will have to cuddle with him.
But that's what's it's if it takes, that's what it takes.
I'm gonna do that.
So I will I promise I will get him to watch it.
And I will give him an edible and I'll put him right in front of it.
And that's how it's gonna go.
Just so you know, Scott.
K-pop demon hunters.
You have not watched it.
I have not, but I don't have young kids, isn't it?
For little kids.
No, it's an adult movie.
Just watch it.
You're gonna watch it with me.
You and I are gonna watch it, okay?
We're gonna call it.
Yeah, that's definitely gonna involve some sort of THC.
Edibles.
They're sexy cartoons.
You'll love it.
Aren't those folks billionaires now?
It's not the most watched thing ever on National.
It is, but I think they got didn't get again like he did rivalry.
They got it.
They got it for a song.
Uh, but I think they did fine.
I mean, they're amazing.
It's an amazing podcast.
I love K-pop Demon Hunters.
It's not for kids, actually.
It's a it's a very complex show.
Okay, that's the show.
Thanks for listening to Pivot.
Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
We'll be back on Friday.
Today's show was produced by Larren Amonzoe, Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.
Ernie Nert engineered this episode.
Rich Shibley edited the video.
Thanks also to Drew Rose, Miss Savera and Dan Shalonda Shark Croat's Vox Media's executive producer of podcast.
Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.
Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.
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