# Heated Rivalry: IP Ownership and Niche Market Strategy

**Podcast:** Pivot
**Published:** 2026-02-07

## Transcript

This week on the gray area, we're talking about what unites us.
We've kind of created a society now where the really the monoculture is just football and Taylor Swift.
Those are really the only things that are like that now.
And I'm not being sarcastic.
It really is the case.
So, what does that say about American culture?
Listen to the gray area with me, Sean Elling.
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This week on a touchmore, Gotham FC's Rose Lavelle joins us to talk about FIFA's very first champions cup, her incredible year of wins, and some of her greatest pranks of all time.
Unfortunately, on yours truly.
Plus, with the WMBA's CBA negotiations still stalled, I gotta ask the question is it time to worry?
Check out the latest episode of The Touch More wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube.
Why have the ICE operations in Minneapolis struck a nerve unlike anything else in the Trump era?
It's really important to understand that this is a radical administration.
It is not a conservative administration.
I'm Preet Berrara.
And this week, Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Atlantic staff writer Ann Applebaum joins me to unpack what's happening in Minneapolis and why she argues this moment reflects a radical governing project, not traditional conservatism.
The episode is out now.
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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.
Today we've got a special bonus episode, and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing.
It's about the most addictive, delightful, surprise cultural phenomena of the decade.
Heated rivalry.
I'm joined today by the show's creator, Jacob Tierney, and executive producer Brendan Brady.
Welcome you two.
You guys are rude already.
I heard you.
Thanks, Cara.
We've been beset by some tech issues, but nonetheless, the gays will prevail.
Um the success of the show is about so many things.
Queer joy, uh uh sex, inclusion.
It's an amazing business story, and that's really what I wanted to talk about.
Um, but first for the fans, are we getting a standalone episode before season two?
Um, I love saying now.
This is Brendan.
So uh uh I would say that like much like the best parts of this show, just enjoy the yearn.
Enjoy the yearn.
Is that on your t-shirt?
I guess no soon.
Trademark, trademark, we trademarked it.
Yeah, okay, because that means no.
That's a no.
We'll see here.
This is Jacob speaking now.
Uh that's a the here's the here's the truth, and that nobody actually wants to hear is that we we just don't know yet.
We are, you know, we we actually only finished this show uh uh basically a week before episode six aired.
And so this has been a uh a massive uh surprise and endeavor and endeavor, and we didn't really have a moment to catch our breaths before answering questions like this.
So the truth is we're we're getting a plan in place.
We will have more information for folks soon.
Uh, we understand that there's an appetite for a lot of this, and we're just trying to figure out what we can at physically accomplish in in in the next year.
In the next year.
So, one thing, this show has been a giant PR boost in the entire your entire country.
Here's Prime Minister Mark Carney at a recent media event.
You had to, speaking of, feel the yearn, but go ahead.
The world knows the Shane and Ilya rising hockey stars who fall for each other as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known.
But they're also two young men who are terrified of being their fullest self.
And we live in an increasingly dangerous, divided, and intolerant world.
A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love.
So uh the narrative has become that it was a little show out of Canada, obviously, made in Canada because American disturbs are afraid of the sex content.
Why don't you start, Jacob?
Uh, the reaction first of all, and the kind of what you think is happening here from I mean, I'm sure you've answered this question, but he sort of articulates it rather well is that people are are upset and divided, and this brings a respite.
But I think it's more than that, in my in my opinion.
But why don't you start Jacob and then you, Brendan?
I mean, I think that there's I I think that what the show did in an in a kind of an unpreachy, untrying to teach you a lesson way, is just present queer joy.
And I think that that's its soft power.
You know, that's the thing that I think people are surprised by, and that that is hit people, at least from what what I'm getting.
And I think that while there are queer stories out there, I don't think there's a lot of joy.
And I don't think that the the kind of profound joy that you only find in romance, really, that kind of heart-filling, uh fantasy-fulfilling, desire-fulfilling things that that you get to see uh don't happen to queer people uh in media.
And I think that that is the kind of whoosh of it all.
Especially men.
Especially there's a lot of lesbian content out there, I can tell you, for the L-word.
I think especially men, and I and I think that um, yeah, we just don't to have a story that chooses to not, and you know, there are obviously our queer lives are filled with trauma, and and I get that, and we I think we all know that.
But I think that this this shows desire to not focus on that, to focus on other parts of the queer experience as fantasy, I and I fully admit it's a very important thing.
Right, it's a romance, it's from a romance, not a romance novel.
Um that that I think that that's the partly the reaction to it.
Um there's a lot I don't pretend I can explain, but I do think that it is that that is kind of that's the big difference.
Yeah, it's different experience for gay people versus straight people, I think.
And because I was always waiting for the hit.
Yeah, right.
I think we all are.
And I I think especially because they have sex so early, and we are trained that if we have sex, we will be punished.
So if we can not have sex, we might be able to be happy, but we can't do both.
You don't get to have a sex life and be happy.
If you want to have a sex life, get ready to die.
And if you want to be happy, get ready to not have sex.
I I think like the other part of this, uh, which Jacob has talked about a lot, and it was kind of how we were pitching this when we were going out to people, which is this is a story written by women, and it's consumed primarily by women.
And we don't take female uh desire and stories seriously in media a lot of the times.
Um, I think a show uh like this that came out of nowhere is kind of we were when we were pitching it, we were really crossing our fingers hoping that we were right.
We were like, there is a built-in audience.
There, the these books are consumed.
So there's so many readers of all types of romance novels.
They're there and they are yearning for uh for these stories to be told.
So I think that was the other like secret sauce in this is just like this is a massive fan base that uh have not had their stories taken seriously, and they got to see it taken seriously, and they loved it.
We'll talk about that because romance, the people I always say, everyone's like, What's so popular?
I'm like, it's a romance novel.
It's from romance novels are popular, it's one of those genres that people don't realize how big it is, how big it's a very important thing.
And as a genre has been around since the dawn of time.
Like it's as old as a detective story, you know, it's as old as all of like romance is there would have been a time when when uh Jane Austen would have been considered romance.
I mean, that's right, these are and it's dismissed, I think to Brendan's point.
It's dismissed despite the fact that it it it the romance genre carries the publishing industry in terms of fiction.
Um I think it's dismissed because um of the misogyny that we all endlessly live with because it's something that appeals to women, is often written by women and consumed by women.
And so why would any I I've said this before, I was like, if this show was about a boy with a gun, somebody would have optioned this book 10 years ago.
You know, well, a hockey player with a gun.
Any boy with a gun.
Anyway, talk about this, but getting it made.
Like we talk on this success on on what it symbolizes.
The difference between Canada and the US, though, even how these productions are funded.
Um let me talk about this idea of it was made in Canada because American distributors.
And let me play very quickly a part of Mark Carney's speech about that of how it was funded.
On behalf of Canada's new government.
Look, I'm a politician.
I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding that helped you share this story with the world.
I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here now.
So uh yeah, I made I greenlit this thing.
I stood up to the Americans.
Uh that's amazing.
That was an amazing speech.
Yeah, so I I think that um, like, you know, this speech that he gave was at an event uh called Primetime, which is hosted by the producers, uh Canadian Producer of Media Association, like the Canadian version of the PGA.
And the point of this was to raise awareness of what's going on in our industry because uh the entertainment landscape is under attack right now.
We've been trying to update our systems.
Um, and because of Kuzma, because of uh the US um, you know, wanting to come in and tell us how to run our country and how our cultural sector needs to be dictated.
There's a lot of concern about whether or not we're going to have a system in place that has cultural sovereignty for Canada.
And so for us, what was so amazing about this experience and getting to see Mark Carney there is our show was made in the Canadian system, and it is very different from the US.
We explain it, explain it for people who don't understand.
So basically, the Canadian uh film and TV system has subsidies and equity and grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government.
So we, you know, when you go to a broadcaster like we did with Crave, which is the streaming platform in Canada that um commissioned the show, uh, they go and say, okay, great.
Here is a license fee.
Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30 percent of the budget.
Then we have a tax credit, both provincial and federal, and that brings another 20 to 30 percent of the budget.
And then it's always that last little piece that you're looking for, right?
So the benefit to us in uh Canada as producers is it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget out of our uh broadcasters, but we as the producers own all the underlying IP.
So that is a bit of a studio.
We are the studio in the system, yeah.
But the the you know the limitations on that are you have to go then raise money.
So how we did this with our show is we ended up talking to a couple of uh studios, some of them American, some of them Canadian, and ultimately it wasn't the right fit from a creative perspective.
And you know, we've we understand where everybody was coming from.
It is a this was you know, on paper, didn't seem like an amazing massive hit right out the gate.
Um, and so luckily when we were going through this process, uh Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media.
Bell Media is like if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country, they own everything from telecommunications to internet to sports.
And they have divisions like Crave, which is extremely exciting.
Is it their only streaming platform?
They have others, yes, no, it's a yes.
No, it's their only streaming platform.
So it's like a Disney Hulohulu or whatever.
Exactly.
But they're also it's like and and they have CTV, which is their ABC.
So they have a terrestrial street, they have a terrestrial channel and they have streaming.
They have cable channels, they have a streaming platform.
Um, and they had just acquired a distribution company called Sphere Abacus uh out of the UK.
And so we were looking for that last 30% of the budget, and um they came in for 20 more percent on a distribution advance.
So the last 10% was Jacob and I put in our producer fees, and we put in almost all of our producer fees, less what we had to keep back because you still have to pay for taxes.
So it was a big gamble for us, but all ultimately I can I'm so what you would have earned for this, the fees that are standard, right?
That's exactly right.
When you when you what was the total budget here?
So we were just under three million Canadian an episode.
Amazing.
That's pretty low, which is what I don't know if you know what a big deal this is, but Brendan is telling the truth.
Yeah.
We've been up to Kara Kara Swisher gets the truth.
She gets the truth, isn't it?
She gets an exclusive.
So that's right.
We were uh we were just under three uh per episode per episode Canadian, right?
Because it looks great, by the way.
It didn't look on the cheap or anything else.
Well, that's also that speaks to Jacob and his amazing abilities.
He's directed over a hundred episodes of television, so he knows what he's doing.
And also speaks to a way in which we like to work, uh, which we feel really is is different than the US system or typical production.
It's an enormously low uh amount for people who don't know.
It's it's very low for a rank television shows.
I mean, the salaries low for a sitcom, it's deeply low for a one-hour drama.
Yeah, deeply low for most those are the salaries of certain people, uh, depending.
So um talk, you know, obviously, these were not well-known people, but still, it's still an expensive thing.
I think most US ones, I feel like 10 million is the lowest they make, right?
It it depends.
It's like between six to four to ten million dollars an episode US is typical, uh, depending on what your level is.
But yeah, I mean, costs have really skyrocketed over the last decade.
Is it less expensive to make this in Canada from a production perspective?
No, we have an efficient model.
Um, and I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being thrown around.
So we by necessity have to spend less.
Um, but we also like did something here where we shot all six episodes in 36 days.
Jacob blo shot uh Jacob directed all six of them.
We block shot them like one giant movie.
Um we talk about this when studios, especially US studios, come and say, How do you guys do this?
And we go, it's crazy.
You have all of your episodes written before you go into prep.
And that's typically when we lose people and they don't understand.
Right, because they write it through.
They write it.
Yeah, exactly.
Although that's changing in the US.
It is changed too much.
It's crazy to do it the other way.
It's especially when you're not doing 22 episodes anymore.
Like back in the old model, when you're doing this volume of episodes where it's not possible to have them all written.
Well, you should have writers on staff.
Well, exactly.
You have to just be writing all the time.
But if you're doing if the new model is eight to ten episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.
So you start shooting.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Yeah, we start shooting, and then we do 10-hour shoot days primarily.
Like I'm not gonna say it's not every day, but we try to keep our hours low.
And there's um a couple of reasons for this.
A as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours with crews, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime.
Um, but we also just feel that, like, you know, my wife is an assistant costume designer, she was the assistant costume designer on this show.
She's five months pregnant.
Uh the departments they thank you.
The departments that get hooped are hair makeup wardrobe with these pre-calls a lot of the time.
Who are those departments run by?
Primarily women, and so we also just feel that like they're in our business, we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16-hour days, which is where the costs balloon.
Right, right.
What are you a lesbian?
What's happening here?
Anyway, so uh Jacob, talk about your production style.
You you besides being you know truncated, like making it tight, you keep it keep it tight, kind of thing.
You call it anti-fascist.
Explain what you mean by that.
Well, I mean, in the I guess what what I what I mean about that is there's a desire often for perfection that is, I think not only unachievable, but also uh insane and cruel to be even attempting.
There's no reason to do if you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor.
I I'm an actor, I've been doing this since I was four years old.
The problem is the scene, it's not the actor.
You haven't written it properly.
If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish, there's a fundamental issue, and by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining.
And so that's kind of I just did I just did a it was all day.
I was like, why?
I didn't get saying why it's insane.
Why is it all day?
To do nine different sizes on a close-up is insane.
All of this stuff is crazy.
It's just like it doesn't add to anything except exhaustion and to overworking people.
I would, and what I like to say is I would rather be surprised by an offering from an actor than control every last aspect of their performance.
And I've used the a scene as an example.
Like on the day when we were shooting, there's a scene in the sixth episode in the cottage after the boys have been caught by Shane's dad, where Hudson and Connor have a scene together, and they say essentially he decides that he's gonna go talk to his parents, Ilya's gonna come with him.
And when we were shooting it, I thought I wasn't convinced that I was gonna use what Hudson was doing in that scene.
I thought it might be too much.
He was reacting, he had a big reaction, which is interesting for Hudson because he's a very internal actor, especially when he's playing Shane.
And I didn't say anything, and I just kind of watched it and I was like, this is interesting.
I think I can cut around this.
I think I can figure out how to get what I want out of this scene.
And then when I got to the editing room and my editor put the scene together, she loved what he had done.
And I looked at it again with new eyes, and I was like, oh, I actually love this too.
And I'm so glad I didn't insist on some idea that I had in my head, because what he brought to the table was more interesting and it was surprising and it was full of life, and it wasn't part of some insane jigsaw plan that I had in my head that needs to fit together or everything falls apart.
And I well, it's a different way of creating, right?
It is a different way of creating, but also I I do believe fundamentally that film and TV is an ensemble process.
It is.
Otherwise, go write a book, you know, go paint a picture.
There's a lots of ways to be in total control.
But as soon as you invite other talents in, as soon as you invite you're in a medium in which that is a part of how it's gonna have to happen, to ask these brilliant people to work with you and then not listen to them or not not use their own.
Although that's sort of the director genre, right?
Like the director gets to run everything, gets to run it.
And I think it's a crazy system, you know.
Like I want to work with talented people, and I want to what are they doing here if I'm not gonna listen to them, if I'm not gonna incorporate their ideas, if I'm not gonna incorporate what makes them so talented, why I wanted to work with them in the first place.
And so, you know, anti-fascist might be a big statement, but it is kind of it's a rejection of an idea that everything has to come from one person and like what you know, the the brilliant idea.
It's very top.
Yeah, I've had very I've had very little experience, but I've been on several sets.
I mean, the idea of somebody taking your cell phone from you when you get to work because they want you focused on their art is so hard, my friend, so fucking male and boring and stupid to me.
Why does the group can't he can't text his wife about dinner because your genius extends that I it's just exhausting?
It's yeah, yeah.
It's also long.
It's it's long.
It's torture.
I I kept saying to people, I got things to do.
Exactly.
This is a job.
So when you talk about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all?
Because I own all my intellectual property, just so you know, and I think it's important.
Explain why it is for you, especially in this space, because that's something that's been an anathema to the industry.
Well, I'll tell you what it means is like Jacob and I uh, you know, worked on a show called Letter Kenny and Shoresy, and the producers of that show made it in Canada as well.
And they had a robust merchandise business.
And when we were in post-production, we decided because we have we uh you know retained all the intellectual property behind the series that we wanted to take advantage of that and make a line of merchandise, which we're doing, which is now incredibly uh like it's it's become this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about.
But it also means that ultimately, like when we we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes really well, we're gonna benefit for the next 25 years off of this.
And that is the difference.
And I think, like, what you know, people always ask about are I guess you look at the Canadian system versus the American system.
The Canadian system, you as the producers, if you want to take advantage of being a really truly Canadian show, part of the get like the offering is the broadcasters can't own the IP.
The producers get to.
And some people will look at that, you know, the but the flip side in the US is you're making way more money up front.
I don't think that either is right or the other is wrong.
I just think that our system uh is something to protect.
Because what's happening in the US, you can kind of look to and say, I mean, is this fully working right now?
Like, can we really argue that this system is better than ours?
No, but I can say that for a hundred years, this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they die did for their entire lives.
And I think that that's something worth fighting for.
I I think so completely.
I at some point I wasn't gonna make some grow someone, and I said, uh, you just have to give me IP.
And they said, Why do you have to have it?
I said it's none of your business.
Yeah, because I want it.
Yeah, because it's mine, it's not yours.
It was like own your own publishing, right?
Because why would you let somebody else administer your work and take all the profit from it?
That's correct.
And like we're gonna we have opportunities and we will work in this system that doesn't have that, and it'll be fine as well.
But I just think that, like, yeah, when we talk about, you know, there's so many reasons why budgets have exploded, you know, the economy like the economy of scale on on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make episode enough episodes, we don't keep contain them into certain locations.
But also, it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit or a kind of a middling hit, you seem to win no matter what at that level.
So I think that there is something to look at as we move forward in these systems of like giving people back end again.
Like these are these old ideas should be new.
Right, which they which they have changed.
So we're gonna take a quick break.
When we come back, we'll have a question from a big fan.
When it comes to the new Melania movie, here are some important numbers to remember.
40 million.
That's how much Amazon paid Melania Trump's production studio for the rights to the film.
It's the highest price ever paid for a documentary.
35 million.
That's about how much Amazon spent marketing the film.
28 million, how much went to the first lady, and seven million.
That's how much the Melania movie made on opening weekend, which is honestly pretty good.
And certainly more the mini box office insiders projected.
So, how did this movie get made?
Who's it for?
And if this is finally Melania Trump's side of the story, what does she have to say?
That's coming up on Today Explain from Vox.
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This week on Networth and Chill, I'm talking about what happens after you've mastered the basics.
How to build wealth that actually lasts for generations.
With the top 1% holding nearly a third of the nation's wealth and 98% of them being men, breaking into generational wealth isn't just about getting rich.
It's about changing who gets to stay rich.
Plus, I'm explaining the great wealth transfer, 124 trillion dollars about to change hands over the next 25 years, and what it means for you.
I'm answering your questions about calculating your net worth, whether you should rent or buy to build wealth, and how to pass your retirement accounts to your kids without losing them to probate courts.
Whether you're just getting started or already maxing out your 401k, this episode will show you how to think bigger than just making money today.
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Over the last several years, AI companies of all shapes and sizes have been desperately trying to get their hands on every bit of available data to make their models better.
This week on the VergeCast, we have the story of how Anthropic destroyed hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of books, and fed them all to Claude.
Plus, we have information on who in tech is in the Epstein Files, what's going on with Netflix, whether it's woke, whether it's gonna buy Warner Brothers, and whether Peloton is gonna successfully sell you a treadmill ever again.
All that on the VergeCast, wherever you get podcasts.
We're back with Heather Rivers, executive producer Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, who are behind the people behind this huge hit, hated rivalry.
I'm friends with Eileen Shaken, the executive producer of the L word, Handmaid's Tale, and many other shows.
And of course, the groundbreaking sort of gay show in the United States was this one, uh, which was many moons ago.
She had a question.
We're gonna play for you right now.
Jacob, I love your show.
Absolutely love it.
Congratulations.
Here's my question.
Our mutual friend, colleague, agent, ally, Matt Felker shared with me the outlandish and stupidly familiar story of getting heated rivalry on the air.
All the rejections that preceded your fabulous and well-deserved massive success.
So do you feel vindicated, pissed, annoyed, smugly satisfied, grateful, just enjoying the process, more determined than ever to sell tell sexy, queer human stories, some other emotion that I didn't describe, or perhaps haven't yet even experienced.
That's a um that's a great question.
She's great.
For people that don't know, Elward really was groundbreaking.
Absolutely at the time.
Um was shocking and showed people happy.
Yes, it did.
It showed a lot of complexity.
I mean, yeah, it was a yeah, that's uh a real thank you um for the question, and thank you for being a fan of the show.
That's so cool.
And I'm sorry that Matt Felker is both of our agents.
Um joke.
I love Matt Felker.
But um, you know, uh uh I can't pretend there isn't a part of me that's slightly smug.
I mean, you know, the a show like this, what we're experiencing here with this show is so like beyond the beyond in the land of you can have a successful show as I did with Letterkenny previously, and it does not explode in this way and this this level of attention.
Um I you know, I I try to not I I'm in therapy and I try to not be, I try to not be toxic exteriorly.
And I think that the lesson that I want to take away from this experience is to continue to trust myself creatively, because that is the thing that paid off is that I felt very strongly, and I luckily had enough backing and support Brendan primarily, obviously, and then uh my my creative crave family, all these executives there.
And it and I did trust something inside me that was like, I'm not doing that, I'm not doing what these folks want me to do.
And I I just to be very clear, it wasn't just Americans, it was other Canadians too.
It was a lot of people, like this, they all like the lean in, like, oh, you have a gay hockey show with sex, and they were like, That's not what we meant.
Too much sex, too much hockey, too little hockey, too little sex, whatever it was.
It was all like, why is it like this?
Can it be different?
And I really was like, I don't think it should be.
I think it should be what it was the craziest thing.
Um, uh, my ex-wife started Planet Out, and then and they merged with gay.com, and one of the venture capitalists said, couldn't they just be hip people versus gay people?
I mean, listen, and she said she said, I she was like, What?
Like I think that just him.
The thing that didn't the thing that was the most you don't get this note that we got, I think was the idea of needing a female entry point into this show because women wouldn't watch this show if there wasn't a woman protagonist.
And I was like, you know, women read these books, women write these books.
Gay men don't even know these books exist.
Like these are for women.
And so the missing that gap in understanding.
Um, and I do think there's a thing with TV, you know, a lot of executives, they get it feels like they get paid by the note.
And so if they are not coming in with a big thought, what are they even doing in the room?
The most of the best executives that I know are the people that actually speak the least, and that kind of trusting creators.
I and then when they do give a note, uh, I take it because this is somebody that is rowing in the same direction as me.
This is somebody trying to make the same show as me.
So injured we call it drive-by editing.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah.
And so I I think that there was such a misunderstanding of who the what the audience wanted out of this, and what I chose to trust was my my gut and the IP and the audience that was already enjoying it.
And I was like, why would you change this when it's already being consumed and obsessed over to this degree?
Right.
Why do you think you know more?
What about you, Ren?
Oh, um, I've also listened there the best thing that happened was we we are friends with a couple of folks who ended up passing because their their bosses wouldn't get on board and getting them, letting them come to us and be like, I told my boss, look what you missed out.
That is the fun part of the like kind of smugness.
I think, you know, uh uh, but to be honest, um, this has been absolutely nuts, Cara.
Like, we're this has been so crazy, it's so much bigger than we ever thought.
I think the now everybody's your friend, right?
Yeah, but also I just feel that and I'm gonna sound a little Pollyanish here, but I'm mean it.
We are trying to also stay grounded by being of service to people.
Part of the reason why we were at the CMPA thing with uh Mark Carney was to kind of raise awareness for our industry.
And we're just trying to figure out ways to to stay grounded with the people and the things that make uh, you know, we've got this incredible platform.
We want to use it to to actually promote positive issues.
Um, and we're we're hoping that that's what we can kind of do.
And that's been the most fun thing that we've gotten to to experience right now is like hearing from people how their lives are being changed and how we are now able to actually affect a modicum of change, even if it's just pushing everything in the right direction.
We're not gonna change the entire universe here.
No, of course not.
Right.
But the specificity of the things we are able to change has been really positive and lovely.
So in that genre, I want to play you something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process.
Because a lot of it, part of it are people breaking free, right?
Like myself many years ago, or I have a lot of people coming to me.
I'm like, it's great out here.
Like you don't need all that stuff.
But let's talk, let's hear what he had to say.
And this is a very successful actor and producer.
So you said Matt Damon?
Matt Damon.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
He's talking about the the business.
I've heard of him.
I think you've heard of him.
Yeah, you've heard of him.
Like, for instance, Netflix, um, you know, the standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third.
And you know, you kind they kind of ramp up and the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act.
That's your kind of finale.
Um, and now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody, you know, we want people to stay tuned in.
And and can, and you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while they're watching, you know what I mean?
So talk about that.
He would, by the way, make an excellent gay hockey player.
But um an old gay hockey.
A retired one.
Sure.
I listen, I should be clear.
I love Matt Damon, and I've always loved Matt Damon.
So talk about that, what's happening now in in the creation.
Do you either of you feel pressure?
We've yet to really experience that, if I'm being perfectly honest, Crave was not like that.
Um, and I will say that part of what the reaction to the show that has been so uh kind of interesting to me is people saying, like, this is a show you have to pay attention to.
If you're on your phone, you're not gonna get it because it's so much about what is not being said, about catching looks between people.
It is dialogue as avoidance and obfuscation.
And the storyline is actually really simple.
Uh, they're in love, they can't admit it.
So, like it's actually not a super complicated plot in that way.
But so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding each other, the ways in which they cannot speak.
That's why the sex is so important, because that's when they're being honest.
And so I think there is definitely a move towards oversimplification.
That being said, you know, I I don't I wouldn't want to be too much of a big deal about this.
Like everybody wants an opening that captures you.
Like, that's not new.
Like that that's been a note since the dawn of time with stories.
Like, let me in.
What's the first scene?
Why are you capturing my attention?
I don't think that's insane.
And I think that, like, I think that that's you know, I think that this thing, you can see it, I think, in a lot of streamers, uh, you know, where you're like, oh boy, you've just explained a thing to me that I already know.
I get I get that that can be frustrating, but I would also add, I am on my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me this for the third time.
And I'm like, yeah, you're not wrong.
I did drift.
Right.
But look at you.
And I think that there can be room for both.
Pop corny fun stuff that like I kind of don't care.
And then every once in a while something comes along and you need to pay attention.
And that's okay too.
And then and then it's up to you to choose.
Do you is that too much for you?
That's okay.
Move it along.
Yeah, I actually didn't look at my phone.
I I have a rule, like how many, how many text looks is it in a movie?
How good is it if I don't pick it up at all?
That's um we have shows in my household with my boyfriend that we put on to be on our phones with.
We're aware of this.
And we think of them as like visual podcasts.
The Grammys.
Sure.
Grammys was a good one.
When you have the the Netflix acquisition of Warner, does that affect it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, we don't.
I think we don't, you know, we have no uh actual information on that.
I would say um again we just want more competition in the marketplace.
And I think that this this is part in Canada and everywhere, everywhere really, but I think you know uh it's kind of to the point I was making about like is this system in the US working really well right now?
I don't know.
Is that good?
Is this gonna be good for creators?
Um it's really hard to tell at this point, but I would say like I don't love that there's less places to go.
Because in Canada, what we have like the reason why we ended up on HBO uh around the world is because Crave and uh Bell Media have the exclusive rights to all of HBO's uh catalog in Canada.
Yeah, uh we don't have and so if we don't have HBO, you have Crave and that has HBO on it, and so like if we don't have that on Crave, does that affect Crave?
What happens to them?
That's a big part of why people go there.
I mean, now and now in heated rivalry, obviously, but um but yeah, like I think that it's a scary time as we see more and more mergers happening, and I, for one, would love to see uh just more competition because I think it's way better when we have more.
But what I would say too, I just that because we're an acquisition, you know, HBO is not actually creatively involved in the show.
I think they like they they say nice things about it.
Which is great, exactly.
So we're not like I think that that that part is not really gonna change, uh at least in the foreseeable future.
So but now now that the show's blown up, they're not suddenly have an opinion about it.
No, because they're still getting it for the same price.
I think it's worked out great for that.
It's worked out really well for them.
Like this is a very successful acquisition.
And I mean, it's clearly working well enough that I don't think they feel the, you know, yeah, I I think that this is just like keep doing it, guys.
That's the that's at least what Casey has explicitly quite said to us is like keep going.
But it can go elsewhere, right?
Around the world, correct?
So it's been sold territory by territory or chunk of territory by territory, in general, pitch picked up by HBO outlets, Sky in the UK and Ireland and in New Zealand, a couple of other exceptions to that rule.
But basically, what they do is they buy it for and then they have an option on the second season and potentially third season.
So they get it's like a kind of a right of first refusal.
So with us with an increase, they get it.
So it's not really even to be renegotiated, it's just kind of like you either want this or you don't.
There's no input into the content.
Right.
Right.
Um, I have a couple more quick questions.
One is about obviously everyone here in the entertainment industry in LA seems to be in despair in many ways in terms of what's happening, including with competition with AI and stuff.
Do you do you is there a big fear from you all about AI?
Because this is the some of the big hits this year, have been the most non-AI type of content, like centers, weapons, yours.
You know, I think that yeah.
I want each of you to talk about it on.
Brandon has more thoughts on this than I do.
Okay.
Uh yeah, I think that listen, there is going to be a place for AI in how we work in this business.
I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities, but I think it is in that tool for creators, not as the creative engine behind costuming.
I think like even scheduling and budgeting and prepping, like those kinds of things where you take an immense amount of time trying to just input data.
So much of our jobs are data-driven, like just trying to get information.
Totally.
And I do think exactly.
I think that those are the opportunities right away that we will see.
And where I would love for people to focus their attention because we were experiencing this, and I'm sure Kara, you can you have had this with your team.
Those moments of friction when you're trying to explain something to someone and they don't get it, that is hard to replicate.
That is hard to do with AI in a way that actually gets you to a place where you're like, okay, cool.
We have now communicated together, and we are on the aligned and still gonna speaking of friction, your whole show is about friction.
Oh yeah.
Hey, but yeah, I think that I think it's hard.
I think we underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience.
Yep, I would agree.
That's that's exactly how I say it.
I I talk about it.
I the words tech people use are always seamless, frictionless, convenient.
You know, they're always using those words.
I'm like, no, friction's critical for you being here.
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah.
What about you, Jacob?
Do you think about it all?
Uh it confuses me.
Uh no, is the answer.
Like, I don't think like I I again, like the way that the way that Brendan speaks about it is like that makes sense to me.
I'm like, I can imagine it helping me with some stuff, but like I it's not gonna write for me.
Like, I don't I don't want that either.
I love what I do.
I don't want to, I don't want someone, I don't need that kind of help, is the way I would say.
Yeah.
So before we go, what would you uh want to do if you could do anything?
Like you guys are now the world is your oyster kind of thing.
Like you can do, obviously, you're gonna do another season of this, maybe two, three, whatever.
Um, what because there's lots of books for people who don't realize.
Um, what what would you want to make?
Would you direct, say, a pointed point break remake with your hated stuff?
Another one before they finally fucked when break the game.
Where they finally fuck.
I don't know about that.
I'm very open to a father-son story with Hudson Williams and Keanu Reeves, however, I it would be um, you know, they do look alike, they do.
They really do.
And Keanu's Canadian, he can come home, we can do a fun thing together.
Um, we are being we uh I'm certainly being offered a lot of things, and uh uh and uh yeah, I'm very excited about what's next.
And I is there anything you're like, gosh, I can't really say, but I I can tell you that once I can talk about a couple of things.
Uh they are one of which in particular is uh a dream uh come true.
Uh so yeah, I I'm I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it, but I I can't at this point.
We've got yeah, and we also we have a whole productions company that we're running with uh like a lot in development.
So it's about getting these projects.
The projects that I you know, from a producer standpoint, what we really want to get made.
Um are we have a number of shows.
The one that is about to go out is called The King Is Dead, and I'm gonna plug it right here because it's from an amazing, amazing indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fontaine.
Crave is already signed on for development.
We're looking for that other partner because it's basically a uh uh it's a call action adventure comedy set in the 1700s.
I know.
Bear with us.
No, no, hello outlander.
Yeah, 100%.
But it's uh comedy about a group of indigenous folks uh tired of all of these white people coming to North America.
They take a boat, traverse back to England uh in an attempt to kill King George the Third.
Oh my god, it's a very super funny history like Monty Python energy.
It's very funny, and uh we're very excited about that show.
Yeah, so that's in development with Crave right now, and we're very excited about that one.
All right.
Well, everybody loves you.
All the boys are getting a lot of attention, which they must be having a ball, it looks like, but you guys deserve equal amounts of attention.
We think what you make is amazing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And and our in this time in the United States, it was just what was needed for now.
So get that episode out.
Get that special episode.
Yeah, we really appreciate it.
Thank you, Kara.
Thank you, Jacob.
And thank you, uh, Brendan.
Um, thanks to the audience for listening to our special bonus episode of Pivot.
You'll be back in our feet we'll be back in our feeds on Tuesday, and I will read us out.
Today's show was produced by Lara Nayman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.
Brandon McFarland engineered this episode.
Jim Mackel edited the video.
Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.
You can subscribe to the magazine at NYMag.com slash pod.
We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.
And Scott, eat your heart out.
Das nervt und ist doch viel zu teuer.
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